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Ex-Mormons Explain it’s a Cult

Spencer W. Kimball , the 12th prophet and president of the Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) said, “To this end God created man to live in mortality and endowed him with the potential to perpetuate the race, to subdue the earth, to perfect himself and to become as God, omniscient and omnipotent.” This is the lie the serpent told Eve in the Garden of Eden in Genesis 3:5. It is a false doctrine. (New Age also teaches man is god.) This false doctrine is from Satan. (Is. 14:12-14) “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” I Timothy 2:5

This web site and this one point out that Satanic symbols decorate Mormon temples, and explains, “Satan’s first lie recorded in the Bible is in Genesis 3:5, “ye shall be as gods.” The doctrines of “exaltation” and “celestial glory” (that people can evolve into gods and goddesses) are rooted in ancient witchcraft (see “A History of Witchcraft” by Jeffrey B. Russell, pp. 158-159; “Drawing Down the Moon” by Margot Adler, p. 25, and “Gnosis” by Kurt Rudolf, pp. 92-93) Yet, these doctrines, complete with the same terminology, are being perpetuated through the Mormon Church today. Satan is deceiving innocent, God-loving people into unknowingly following his oldest and most predominate lie, and he has left his mark all over Mormon temples.

Don’t you wonder why the cross is nowhere to be found on Mormon temples and LDS Church buildings? The cross is where our victory over death took place, and yet the LDS Church won’t have anything to do with it. The apostle Paul tells us that, “the preaching of the cross is to them that perish, foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God” (1 Cor. 1:18) Satan opposes the cross.”

Here are some testimonies from ex-Mormons, and above is a video of ex-Mormons explaining their awakening to the truth about Christ. The second video is Jerry Johnson and I discussing Mormonism on the beach in Hawaii!

Mormonism, like every other religion, (the root word “re-ligio” means “to bind back to God) is about “works” for salvation; you have to earn it, be good enough, do good deeds, follow the rituals, etc.

The Bible message, the “gospel”, the “good news,” is not a religion, it’s a relationship. Ephesians 2:8,9 “For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.” It was finished on the cross. Jesus, the sinless one, the spotless Lamb, God in the flesh, sacrificed himself for our sin. We are forgiven. The debt is paid. All that is required of us, is to accept the free gift of salvation.

“Beware false prophets.” Bible verses here.

“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.” Gal. 1:8 (Both Islam and Mormonism began by men claiming an angel gave them a special ‘message.’)

“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1

It doesn’t mean a person is a bad person, or unkind if they are a Mormon, it just means they are misguided, deceived.


Similarities between Christians and Mormons:

good morals, clean lifestyle, family values.

Differences between Christians and Mormons:

Mormons teach:

1) Jesus and Satan are brothers.

The Bible says:

1) Jesus created Satan. John 1

Mormons teach:

2) Gospel is “good works for salvation” (follow rules, baptism, mission, temple eternal marriage, tithe, temple attendance,visiting teacher, wear underwear, believe Joseph Smith and all prophets, believe Book of Mormon, 3 degrees of glory, only way to highest celestial kingdom, live a perfect life.

The Bible says:

2) Eph. 2:8,9 “…by grace are you saved through faith, not of works…”
Christians do good works out of gratitude not to earn favor with God.

Mormons teach:

3) Bible can’t be trusted, errant; need additional Scripture, Book of Mormon. Bible is secondary.

The Bible says:

3) Bible says, II Tim. 3:16 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is…(perfect).” “Do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.” Prov. 30:6
“And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” Rev. 22:19

Mormons teach:

4) Purpose of temples- baptisms for the dead, and place God is. They worship the buildings.

The Bible says:

4) There is no baptism for the dead. Individuals are responsible to God for themselves. Verses here refute this.
And, God lives inside believers, not inside buildings. I Cor. 6:19,20 “..your body is temple of Holy Spirit.”

Mormons teach:

5) Families will be together eternally

The Bible says:

5) Bible says, “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.” Matt. 22:30

Mormons teach:

6) Mormon doctrine can change at any moment.

The Bible says:

6) “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, forever.” Heb. 13:8
“The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God endures forever.” Is. 40:8
“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.” Matt. 24:35

Mormons teach:

7) The definition of the word “Christian” is:

A person who believes Jesus was a good man who worked his way to becoming a god.

The Bible says:

Jesus is God. The only God. The one true God. Verses here.

Mormonism is not Christianity. I think Glenn Beck is starting to see the difference between the two. Jesus said, “Seek and ye shall find…” Matthew 7:7

It’s interesting that both presidential candidates in 2012 came from Satanic cults, a Mormon and a Muslim.

 
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  • Grundune

    This article is intended for people who know little truth about the Gospel of Jesus Christ and want to be fooled. It is NOT intended for people who want to know truth and are willing to search it out. The latter will come to the same conclusion I did that this article is deceptive and will not stand up to honest scrutiny.

    • sha49tn

      No, what she says in this article is the TRUTH. Mormons are NOT Christians, they are deceived. Unless you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, then you are NOT a Christian. Jesus told Nicodemus, ‘Ye must be born again…’ to have eternal life. If you’re not born again, spiritually, then you are NOT a Christian. If you doubt it, get a Mormon bible & read it. Or get a Koran, & read it. See what’s in there for yourself.

      • Grundune

        Like I said this article is for people who want to be fooled, sha49th. Thanks for registering.

        • xiqtem

          YOU ARE A LIAR!!!

          • Grundune

            Oh for crying out loud, xiqtem, say what you really mean. Stop mincing words.

    • Nolan Ashman

      Well presented! If you want to know what is good and of value to Mormons, ask a Mormon. If you want to know what is vile and bad about Mormonism, ask one who has been excommunicated or someone who has a different version of faith but little, if any, knowledge of Mormonism. Far too many lost souls out there still equate Mormonism with Warren Jeffs and the “Short creekers”.

    • xiqtem

      LIAR!!!

      • Grundune

        Are we on empty, xiqtem?

        • xiqtem

          It is just amazing to me that anyone would believe a murdering, horse thief, child molester like Joseph smith or Mohammed.

          • Grundune

            Sorry, I am not acquainted with either.

          • Ladybug91

            You’re not acquainted with JS? What a joke!

          • Grundune

            I am not acquainted with a murdering, horse thief, child molester named Joseph smith. I am acquainted with the writings and prophecies of the Prophet Joseph Smith who helped restore the Lord’s church in this dispensation.

          • Ladybug91

            Grun: Now you’re putting words in my mouth? Did I say that JS was a murderer or horse thief? NO, I never did, those were your words, so why would you say those things? I said, he was a child molester since he was having an affair with a 14 yr. old girl named, Fannie Alger. He also was an adulterer taking other men’s wives. I also called JS a con man for he was and faced a judge in a court of law, found guilty of glass looking (which he learned from his father) and was forced to pay a fine. Want the reference as to when this all happened and where?
            That is why you are so very lost and in need of my Lord and Savior. JS never restored anything. And the Lord’s Church never needed restoring either! It was still here on the earth and just because you don’t want to accept that fact, is not my concern. I take Christ at his word, why would he lie? Now JS, he would lie and did it all the time, even to his wife and followers. JS lied a blue streak almost his entire life, it made him feel good. Do you know anything of psychology? I do. All anyone needs to do is read JS’s History and it is so clear that he had some major mental problems; paranoia, and delusions of grandeur. A kid who came from a poor family who would do anything to get attention. That is what is so sad, that for all these years, JS has been fooling millions and taking all those poor souls to hell with him.
            Many questions have been asked of you but so far you’ve ignored them. You are just like my old Home Teacher and even my own father, who could not answer my questions over 30 years ago when I began my journey. How all they wanted to do was judge me, call me stupid and intimidate me. It was then that I really realized that the religion I was raised in was so wrong creating an environment of fear. Why would the “only true Church” treat people like that and try to force them with fear tactics? It was like living within a Communist community where everyone watched each other and ran to the Bishop to tattle. It makes me sick! I am still waiting for an apology from you with your blatant lie that I was immoral and ex’d due to that reason! It matters not that this was your feeling. The HELL with your evil feelings! They come from SATAN! You are a follower of Satan and his lies!

          • Grundune

            And of course you where there.

            Brother Joseph has been maligned in our day, just as Noah and others were maligned in their day. This is to be expected. Satan knows who God’s prophets are and works very hard to destroy them.

            It is sad that you believe Satan rather than going to Heavenly Father for the truth as I did. I guess your name will be added to those who persecuted God’s servants. Not a list I aspire to.

          • xiqtem

            Joseph Smith is the con-man that fabricated your cult with the help of satan.

  • xiqtem

    Well Grundune which Jesus are you talking about? The one of the mormons or the one of the Bible because they are two different beings. The one of the BOM is a lie and never existed. The one of the Bible is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but through Him. Any mormon that says they worship the same Jesus doesn’t know the true Jesus. There are so many mutually exclusive claims about Christ that either the BOM is right or the Bible is right. If you say the BOM then go be a mormon and be happy on this world because you are destined for an eternal hell of God’s wrath being poured out on you. If you believe in the Jesus of the Bible repent and put your faith in Him to save you and don’t worry about the fearsome life we now live, instead store up treasures in Heaven for you will be with God glorifying Him and enjoying Him for ever.

    • Grundune

      I don’t know what you’ve read, but Mormons pray to the Father of Jesus Christ, just as Jesus instructed us to do. And they pray “in the name of Jesus Christ”.

      • xiqtem

        You are a liar or a deceived person. The Jesus of the Bible is not a creation of God. God was never a man named Elohim. He was never became exalted and then became and angel and then a god. He was never given a solar system to populate with his spirit babies so… you see we do worship a different God than you. Your god is the creation of a lying, horse thieving murder named Joseph Smith.

        • Grundune

          xiqtem, you said, “The Jesus of the Bible is not a creation of God.” But Jesus Christ is the SON of God. What part of Son do you not understand?

          The rest is nonsense that you think Mormons teach, so I advise you to become knowledgeable before proceeding.

          • xiqtem

            It is what they teach. I grew up in a mormon run town. My best friend was uber mormon. I’ve read the BOM and the D&C and the writings of Talmage. The doctrine of the cult is so out of line with what the Bible says there is no way for you to defend it other than to lie. God in trinity is simple, but JS couldn’t understand it because he was an unregenerate heathen con man so he made a bunch of bunk up and put it in a book. Repent and put your faith in the true Jesus, or you will burn in hell for all eternity. Read John 1:1-14 and 1 John and for that matter all of the NT and you will still not see that the trinity is true because you are perishing.

          • James Banta

            What part of the flesh of Jesus didn’t you know about.. Jesus is the Son because of the flesh. The the Old Testament talked about
            a coming Messiah who would be born into the world, and that this Messiah –
            or “anointed one” – would in fact be “God with us”. Here are a few
            references …

            Genesis 3:15 records the LORD is speaking to the serpent (Satan), and how the ‘seed of a woman’ would bruise the serpent’s (Satan’s) head: “And
            I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and
            hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”

            Now, women obviously do not produce “seed” – men do – so this is interpreted by most scholars to be a prophecy concerning the supernatural incarnation of the Savior, the Messiah”, who would redeem mankind from the Fall and bring God’s creatures back into fellowship with Him.

            Isaiah 9:6 talks about a child who will be born, whose very name will be ‘Might God”: “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”

            Psalm 2 is the Father speaking to the Son, telling Him that He
            is born into the world, and will eventually have the ends of the earth for
            His possession: “I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He
            said to Me, ‘You are My Son, today I have begotten You. ‘Ask of Me, and I
            will surely give the nations [Gentiles] as Your inheritance, and the very
            ends of the earth as Your possession.” “Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, for His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!” Son of God is one of his titles just as Grundune is for you.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Have you noticed that you can’t understand what you are told. Or you can’t hold a thought long enough to compose a rational response. But, I’m beginning to enjoy this and I think you are, too.

          • James Banta

            Yes yes, you have no Biblical points you can make so you turn and attack those that do.. I see that again and again.. when you run out of doctrinal arguments attack the person who demands you explain why LDS doctrines don’t align with the Bible.. That always works, right.. Attacking me as being stupid make it easier to accept the anti biblical beliefs of mormonism. That there are more than one God. That some gods were formed after the Father was already God. That Polygamy is a eternal principle that even God lives.. Why not tell us that God is subject to time and doesn’t know all things.. Your complaint now is that I can’t stay on topic.. .I will if you will.. You have brought up one subject after the other when I have been trying to stay on the subject of the nature of God.. .Can you do that? I can..

            Ok show me in the scripture where we can see that there are three true and living Gods for this world.. Show me me what God meant when He said that he doesn’t know of any other God like Himself. Show me that on;y the Father is God.. That Jesus was lying when He used the name of God in relations to Himself.. Show me that lying to HOLY Spirit is not lying to God.. Show me why Smith was right when he said that there are three Gods and Jesus was lying when He said that the Lord our God is one Lord.. Is the Bible that mistranslated? We have some very old manuscripts. We have the great Isaiah scroll included in the DSS. Surely if Isaiah 43:10-11 was mistranslated it would have been noticed by now.. So where do you have any evidence that Smith is right and there are three God’s and the Bible wrong as it insists that there is one? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Do you realize how long it took you to respond to my post? And that’s all you can come with?

            As for the rest of the ground you are re-covering. If you can’t explain how a trinity can sit beside itself or why it has to pray to itself or why it calls out to itself or any of the other things recorded in the New Testament that your supposed trinity performed, then do as James suggests and pray to God and get the wisdom He is promising. It’s not that hard, UNLESS you are afraid of the warning James gives in the next verse.

          • James Banta

            I told you that the trinity teaches that the Father, Son. and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons.. I don’t doubt that.. You seem to believe the nonsense the leaders of mormonism say about the trinity and hold it to be the truth.. I don’t believe that Smith tried to have sex with ever woman he ever met. as some would teach. Why do you believe the nonsense taught by enemies of the Biblical Christian Church?

            I am not saying that we shouldn’t ask God for wisdom to use our knowledge.. I am not afraid of wavering as I ask for wisdom.. When did I ever say that would show that I disbelieve those things? While we are in James tell me do you believe that who even commits a sin is guilty of the whole law? You jumped to an attack of the trinity from discussing the singularity of God so I guess I can jump to this doctrine as well.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You said, “I told you that the trinity teaches that the Father, Son. and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons..” You’d better check again. That false concept is all over the place. It is vague, contradictory, incomprehensible and a total fabrication at odds with so much of the Bible. It is absolutely un-Biblical and that should not have escaped you.

            Just stop and think about it. Do you want to believe an uninspired committee paid for by a Roman Emperor that worshiped the sun? Or your own common sense. Many evangelicals of my acquaintance reject the false concept of the trinity without knowing about the Prophet Joseph. They discerned truth on their own because they thought for themselves and rejected foolishness. You can too. You don’t have to be wedded to that man-invented monstrosity.

          • JobRon

            James: The trinity does NOT say that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are distinct persons. Go back and read what Constantine made the Bishops of the day come up with to unify what was left of the Church after the foundation of 12 Apostles and the Chief Cornerstone Jesus Christ were killed off.

        • NoCrud

          You are right and Mormons are busy trying to destroy all records/history of their morbid past. I loan two books to Mormons at different times, not knowing they were Mormon, and when I went to get them, I was told, “I showed it to the elder and he lost it.” Horse Hockey… They destroyed the books because they cannot stand the truth.

          One that tells some of their past is “Jim Bridger, Mountain Man.” It shows how they came back to Bridger’s Fort to kill him TWICE. The book is very historical/factual and the Mormons hate such books.

          • Grundune

            I notice that you don’t respond, but simply go right to the anti-Mormon literature created by men. Don’t you understand the things of God? Can’t you converse on anything but the writings of men. Do they claim to be inspired of God? Of course not, for they traffic in hate. Their mission is the same as Satan’s, destruction, and their motives are the same, hatred.

            I’d advise you to get out of their service.

          • James Banta

            And now a book about Jim Bridger is ANTI.. Go figure.. Here is a news flash .. ALL the uniquely LDS scripture in created by mere men. Much of it is anti Christian it it’s nature speaking of the only two churches doctrine of mormonism.. Most people don’t understand anything about God and His ways, I must include you in that group.. The Church (All the born again believers on Jesus) see mormon hatred in the PofPG JSH verse 19.. We have nothing that points to any organization we call Christian and say that they are corrupt.. Mormonism does.. You have made that hate speech part of your scripture.. I advise you to get out of any church that institutionalizes hate as mormonism has in that passage.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Blah, blah, blah, blah. You certainly can’t hold a thought or make a point. I am starting to discern your motives and they have nothing to do with religion.

          • James Banta

            Nothing I teach here or anywhere else has one thing to do with religion.. I teach only relationships. The most important with God and then with one another. Religion is man made and has caused the world a lot of Misery. Relationships are all about love and have never harmed anyone.. It’s time you learn the difference.. IHS jim.

          • Ladybug91

            Yes, they do! Example. Many years ago, my parents came to our home to visit. My husband had a new Bible. It was the New International Version. My father was very curious about it and asked to look at it. My parents being Mormons couldn’t accept any other Bible translation other then the King James. My dad flipped through many pages, stopping to read certain ones and asking what this version was all about. My husband explained to my father that with that translation, it made it easier for him to understand with all the thees, shalls, thous etc. taken out and written in plain English. What is so strange and today we still don’t know what or how this happened, but not long after my parents left my husband could not find his Bible. We looked everywhere in our home but it was no where to be found. I even asked my mother about it the next day but she denied having seen it and had no idea where it went. What is even more upsetting about this incident was that we didn’t have the extra money at that time to go out and buy another Bible. I know my parents took it and threw it away, where else could it have gone and my mother and her huge purse could have easily carried it and no one would be the wiser. That stinks!

          • Grundune

            How did you know Mormons are destroying all records/history of their morbid past. I just burned a book this morning.

        • Grundune

          I think you’ve been reading too much anti-Mormon propaganda and not enough of what is actually revealed by God and taught by the members of Christ’s church.

          • Ladybug91

            Again, you don’t understand anything about Jesus. HE WAS NOT CREATED! He has existed forever! You don’t understand the Trinity either for God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are ONE GOD! They are not one in purpose as you and all Mormons preach. I have quoted to you 11 Nephi where it says there is but ONE GOD! Are you not accepting of what is written in your BOM?

          • Grundune

            I perceive that you are intelligent but stubborn. It is too bad you didn’t get your questions answered before you made your decision to leave the church. I too had many questions but I was a tad more patient and insisted on getting answers and understanding. But I still desired confirmation from God that what was being taught to me was TRUE. Did you get confirmation from God before you acted? He would have given you that wisdom because He promised it as James recorded the Bible.

          • Ladybug91

            “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Romans 10:17) You assume so much don’t you? You assume I never asked questions before I made my decision to leave the religion I had been raised in and also married in the temple? DO you assume leaving was that easy? It never pays to assume until one knows all the answers.
            You also assume that I never asked God about the things I studied and again you are so wrong! Wisdom is the correct use of knowledge. I could know ALL things but if I don’t use wisdom along with that knowledge I would be a fool. Again I will ask, what makes your confirmation better then mine? Why did I receive an answer that the LDS Church is wrong and leads people away from the true and living God? God never changes, so all I can do is compare the Bible with Mormon doctrines, which I did and I found Mormonism wanting. The differences are so compelling and please show me where Mormonism lines up with the teachings of the Bible. Show me where the concept of God through Mormonism is taught in the Bible. Your own BOM teaches the triune God. Your three witnesses to the BOM also claimed there was only ONE GOD. When did Mormonism go off its trolley? For your esteemed BOM does not teach anything about Mormonism, nothing! Everything that anyone would want to know about the LDS Church can be found in your D&C and the teachings of JS. So why the need for your BOM?

          • Grundune

            The concept of the triune god was invented over 300 years after the compilation of the Book of Mormon and half a world away. No chance the Book of Mormon teaches the triune god. The rest of your post goes to, asked and answered.

          • James Banta

            I have shown you that the concept is Biblical.. yes the word Trinity entered the Christian vernacular at the coming of the creeds.. So what, a doctrine explained in the scripture was named.. The doctrine that the Lord our God being one Lord, is as old as the Ten commandments. The concept that God has been God from everlasting to everlasting was first seen i the scripture at the time of the Psalmists. The teaching that no God was formed before Gid and no other will be formed after Him was given to the prophet Isaiah.. The facts that Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are God is a teaching found in the NT.. Are you still saying that the doctrine that is describe as the Trinity is a Dark Ages invention? You are drinking the mormon Koolaid.. No chance the BofM teaches the concept of the Trinity? Then you don’t believe that without adding to the passage that the BofM doesn’t teach this:

            2 Nephi 31:21
            And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

            I added no interpretation.. Only what it says.. I add no other wording as Mormonism does to the ind of the passage like the word :”In Purpose” only a false religion would have to add to their own scripture to make it say what they want it to say instead of allowing it to say what it says.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Oh the doctrine of the “trinity” was explained in the Bible? Why have you withheld this marvelous piece of critical information until now. Please enlighten us where the Bible explains the inexplicable, trinity.

            If you have problem with the descriptive phrase “in purpose”, where does it same “the same person”!

          • James Banta

            Why don’t you answer them. If I could see truth in mormonism instead of the error I see filling it I would repent and return to mormonism. Give us the answers? Why does the BofM teach that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God, AMEN, and the “prophet” Joseph teach we have three Gods. Why does he insist that he knows more about the number of true Gods for this world than the Bible teaches? Explain it.. I will listen.. I will have questions and won’t believe you unless you can show that God has spoken through you. But I will tell you right now. I want to be His child and live as such eternally with Him in His Kingdom.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            The Godhead is comprise of three Gods and they are one in purpose. It is quite correct to refer to ONE GOD meaning the Godhead. Your understanding of the Bible is your own private interpretation and I am not responsible for that.

            I also know you will not be persuaded by me and well you shouldn’t, but there is one who knows all and will answer your questions. Please avail yourself of Him.

          • James Banta

            Ok then you deny what God said about His nature. That is your choice.. My “Private” interpretation is what the Bible says.. It doesn’t say there are three Gods united it purpose.. It says there in ONE GOD.. It would be simple to say what you are claiming but such a clear statement of three Gods is never seen in the scripture.. that is a private MORMON interpretation and can’t be supported in the text of the Bible. Keep reaching for your man invented idol and deny what |God has said about His nature.. I Believe what God has already told me.. Do I need to ask Him if He made the world? No why not? Because He has already explained that He did,, Neither do I need to ask Him what He has already told me.. He said that No God was formed before Him and no God will be formed after Him.. Why do I need to ask Him that again? I believe Him, that fact is settled.. As I have said before many a mormon will tell me that that statement is just for this world.. I will even allow that.. So when did Jesus become a God? Before the Father, or After Him? It was after Him according to mormonism. That denies His word and calls Him a liar.. I would see a man as being a liar before God wouldn’t you? Therefore in teaching that there are three Gods, Smith was a liar..Your doctrine of God makes nosence at all when applied to God’s word.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            If there are not three Gods, separate and distinct, who are one in purpose. Then amuse me with your explanation of how a being of one substance [Christ and the Father] can do what Jesus Christ did as recorded in the New Testament.

          • James Banta

            The doctrine of the Trinity doesn’t deny that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren’t three separate persons. It teaches that they same the same nature the sane essence, the same being.. They are One God not three Gods. That satisfies the demand of scripture that there is one God. The fact that they are separate persons satisfies the physical requirements we see at the Lord’s baptism.. You error not knowing the scripture.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Let me get this straight, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate persons, but they are One God not three Gods.

            And this has been constructed because you have interpreted the scriptures to “demand that there is one physical (?) God” as opposed to interpreting them in some other way, like one in purpose or the record of a prophet who was talking to people who were worshiping a plethora of gods instead the God of this world, Jesus Christ.

            The false concept of the trinity lasted for so many years because it was forced on the church organization and the rank and file members had no access to the scriptures to see for themselves. As the Bible became more accessible, the concept of the trinity began to be challenged. Many were put to death for this and other “heresies”. Hardly how Christ acted when he walk and taught.

            I am so grateful that the Lord restored His church and the fulness of His gospel to the earth prior to my arrival. I just couldn’t stomach the nonsense of the Protestant churches like the trinity, but I wanted to know about God and for a long time believed that no one on earth knew.

            I am now very happy and excited to have been exposed to His restored church and to know that I have personal access to Him and I will never return to the vomit that is corrupt man-interpreted religion.

          • James Banta

            Just what would you say of a passage that claims that one person of God is invisible but a second is the physical image of the first? Would you say that the first one is in not tangible but the second is? Here is that passage in it’s context:

            Col 1:9-17
            For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray
            for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his
            will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

            That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every
            good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
            Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
            Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
            Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
            In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
            Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
            For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in
            earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
            principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
            And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

            So is this second person, this one that is the image of the invisible God, or is he not? Are you ready to believe what God has set right before you or are you going to continue to turn your back on it because some man that called himself a prophet said so? Show some real wisdom and believe God over the words of a man.. Your eternal destiny depends on that one step of faith.. Are you brave enough to trust God over men? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            What would say if I said you are straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel? What would you say if I told you that you don’t have access to the further light and knowledge that He promised us and are therefore operating under a handicap that can confound the most learned of men? What would you think of a person that has been given access to the One who has the answer and will give it freely, but that person refuses to ask?

            When you can answer these correctly, you will have gained wisdom, Grasshopper.

          • James Banta

            I would ask you why you would ask that.. It’s not a small insignificant thing to Know the nature of God.. Jesus said:

            John 17:3
            And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent..

            Look at your own LDS addition of the KJV of the Bible and see all the references that are used to explain it and tell me again that you are taught the scripture only by the Holy Spirit. would seem that your learned teachers are the ones that are confounded by the teaching of the Bible.. It is they and you that will not go to Jesus and simple ask Him to make you His own.. And in mormon doctrine why would you you already believe you are his my right of birth in some preexistant realm that is NOT spoken of in the Bible.. You say things like you did in your post and don’t bother to show one reason for your attack.. Don’t think I am the only one to notice that.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I showed you a reference to the premortal life in the Bible.

          • Grundune

            This is exactly the point I’ve been making. You think scripture is of private interpretation, specifically your interpretation. You interpret that passage to mean that Jesus Christ is the invisible God. I interpret it to mean Jesus Christ (who the people have seen) is THE IMAGE of the invisible God (Heavenly Father, who the people have not seen, ergo invisible to them). That is sufficient reasonable doubt, certainly enough to send you to God for the answer. So, do as James says and ask God.

            By the way, both the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bone. Separate bodies, I might add.

          • James Banta

            Did I interpret anything? I quoted the scripture.. If you see an interpretation there what did I add to the passage to make it mean something other than what it says.. I quote. Deut 6:4 The Lord our God is One Lord.. I added nothing.. I wee it as meaning that the Lord our God is one Lord.. Not three Lords.. I don’t add an interpretation of “In purpose” to that you do that… When Isaiah say that no other God was form before God and no other will be formed after Him, I believe that No other Gods will ever be formed.. I don’t add “For this world:, I don’t make any exceptions for a new god you call Jesus or the Holy Ghost.. When He tell us that He know of no other God, I don’t interpret that to mean for this world.. I add nothing to what the passage teaches.. I don’t try to change the word born or birth into baptism in John 3.. Instead I believe what it says and that we need to be BORN again not baptized.. Who again uses a the scripture private interpretation of the scripture? The one how believes what it says as it is written or the one who must modify it to make it say what he wants it to say?

            This statement that the Father has a body of flesh and bone is not biblical.. Again I quote the scripture without an interpretation.. “God is Spirit” (John 4:24) . I don’t change it to teach that “God has a Spirit”.. Again I believe what the Bible teaches not what I want it to teach as mormonism does.. Jesus said that “a spirit hath not a body of flesh and bone as you see I have”.. (Luke 24:39). Again Jesus teaching that God is Spirit says that God has no such body.. I am not manufacturing this stuff from some nonbiblical source as mormonism does.. I just believe what God teaches in Him word.. It would seem from all this that it is you and your church that hold private interpretations not me or the Jesus of the Bible. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            So what was the point of your quote if not to further your argument that you think the false and un-Biblical concept of the trinity is the truth?

            Luke 24:39 tells of Jesus quieting their fears because they thought they had seen a ghost.

            You know perfectly well that God the Father is both spirit, and flesh and bone. The only quotations to the contrary are in your mind. Truth comes from God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. Definitely not from your interpretations of the Bible.

          • Ladybug91

            Please, share where I can find the, “one in purpose” idea? Here is a question for you and I will be patient and wait for your answer.

          • Grundune

            I am glad you are patient. Jesus said, I and My Father are one.

          • Ladybug91

            Grun: This didn’t answer my question. Where is, “ONE IN PURPOSE!” That was my question. You have been hammering that idea over and over again here. I will be waiting, patiently for you to give me my answer.

            The Bible is full of verses proclaiming that Christ and his Father are one. When Christ proclaimed to the Jews, who had gathered round him that he was the I AM. Why did the people pick up stones and wanted to stone him?

            Trying to understand that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit make up ONE GOD is difficult for Mormons. To make it so you all can understand, you must add, “one in purpose”. Christians believe there are three persons within the Godhead, they are all equal in authority. For a finite mind to try and understand the infinite is not easy, but necessary. “That they might know thee, the true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3)

          • Grundune

            What! You think they are the same being? Please describe this concept. Does it have three heads, six arms and six legs. In John 17:21 Jesus wants His disciples to be one. “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.”

            According to your way of understanding the scriptures we are now up to 15 heads, 30 arms and 30 legs.

            Wouldn’t it be better understand the scriptures rather than parse them for your own purposes?

            ONE IN PURPOSE!

          • James Banta

            What have you been told here? You were told that there are three separate Persons who are the one true God.. No one monster but three persons. The Father . The invisible God.The Son who is the Father’s physical Image, and the Holy Spirit who is sent to indwell the believer and direct His Church. None of this has one word of similarity to Mormonism but is the Biblical nature of God.. We can be one with God but not in nature. In all other ways we can be but we can’t share His divinity,

            The Bible tells us that no God will be formed after Him.. He is God so I we can’t became gods we would be by necessity formed as such after him.. That is not possible and have God truthful. Since He can’t lie nothing and nod no one will ever become a God. So how can we be one with His as He is with the Father? WE can live with Him as He lives with the Father. We have to have the full trust and love for |Him and each other as He does for the Father.. I that way we cab reflect the connection the Father has with the Son in our relationship with Him and our brothers and sisters in Christ, In Love and commitment to Him and each other.. Since we can’t become a God as He is God, this is the only way we can be one with Him as He is with the Father,, IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You are not suppose to form gods. Aaron did that and got taken to the wood shed.

          • James Banta

            Then why did Joseph Smith do it? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            He didn’t.

          • Grundune

            Must be your understanding, because the Book of Mormon doesn’t teach the false concept of the trinity that you keep referring to and neither does Joseph Smith.

          • James Banta

            Yes he is reading a lot of anti mormon “propaganda”. Like the Bible as it teaches that “Hear oh Israel the Lord our God is one Lord” and the BofM as it teaches that “And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. You need to reexamine you definition of the meaning of the word “propaganda”… People might start believing you to be a fool.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            A foolish man sticks to the interpretations of other men and refuses to consult the Man who commissioned the book.

          • Ladybug91

            Oh, like you and all the members of your Church who have listened to JS and all the men who came after him? Through JS’s example, he certainly didn’t show the world that he believed and wanted to live a life that was pleasing to God now did he? Why would anyone believe anything such a man had to say? It boggles my mind.
            We pray daily, sometimes more then daily. We read the scriptures so that we can learn about God and to be lead by His Holy Spirit. The Bible remains on the best seller list and has for decades and shows the world how one should live their life by following God and living by his commandments. In 2 Tim. 2:15 it says, “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.” You own Church uses the saying, “Chose the Right.” How often do I see a young person wearing a CTR ring but then, how many of those young people have I seen displaying a total lack of love for the Lord in their actions? If one claims to have the truth, then shouldn’t their lives reflect it?

          • Grundune

            Yes, their lives should reflect the truth they understand. But unfortunately they are imperfect and make mistakes. Perhaps if we change it to “Choose the Right” that would help.

          • James Banta

            See instead of addressing the issue you attack simple spelling.. Even the best spellers will find themselves in hell if they are not in Christ.. THIS DISCUSSION IS not ABOUT SPELLING. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Your wife proceeds to malign a prophet of God, then attempts to preach to me on basic doctrine and then complains about youngsters misbehaving. I didn’t want to be rude and ignore her, so I picked out something basic she erred on to illustrate her lack of knowledge about the Lord’s church. I can ask any of the primary children in my ward today and they will be able to tell me what CTR stands for and spell it correctly.

          • James Banta

            All children misbehave.. It is what they are. They are children of wrath! All of them because they are not excused from being human.. They are like all the rest of us sinners. Yes it is true that before the knowledge of good and evil enters their minds they are protected by His blood. After all Jesus said “Allow the little children to come to me for that is the the way of the Kingdom of heaven” But even a small child much sooner than you would believe understand the difference between good and evil.. Like a afternoon a small 3 year old is playing and making ahuge mess in the living room and mom walks in and say “Who made this mess?” and the child again and again says “I don’t know”.. They lie, why? To avoid being in trouble.. And in trying to avoid trouble revel that they know what they have done is wrong.. There it is a admission that they know good from evil.. No one always chooses the right.. We all sin and therefore have fallen short of His glory.. Even children.. I braise his name that He is there to caugth us when we fall.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Children before the age of accountability are not culpable.

          • suzyshopper

            And what might that age be, and where in the Bible is it stated, my Bible says that we all conceived in sin in the womb, so where does your age of accountability fit into too that.Also the Bible says All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, their is none righteous no not one .If one is born in sin and that is what sends us too hell there’s nothing before being born, the age of accountability is a man made doctrine.There are not two salvation plans, one for the unsaved and another for children.The Bible says that when Adam and Eve sinned all of mankind was tainted with sin. Therefore all mankind became evil, last time I checked children were part of mankind. And I do believe the Bible only, when it says ALL have sinned, therefore children are not exempt from Gods judgement anymore then anyone else.

          • Grundune

            You worship an interesting god. My God does not send children to hell. I think you need to follow modern day prophets sent by God to restore the Gospel of Jesus Christ or are you like the people in the time of Noah who rejected the Lord’s prophets?

          • James Banta

            I only accept that interpretation that my Teacher the Holy Spirit offers me.. Unlike the clearly false interpretation mormons are taught from Isaiah 29:11-12, or Ezekiel 37:16-23. In Isaiah the unlearned man never reads the sealed book.. And in Ezekiel God give the interpretation that has nothing on common with books of scripture, but instead with the unification of the divided kingdoms.. And you accept these false interpretations without ever a question.. And now you accuse me of being foolish in the interpretations that the Holy Spirit has given to me? That is so hypocritical.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You call the interpretations of scripture that I have confirmed with God per James’ instructions, false. And then complain that I don’t believe you?

          • James Banta

            Yes I do. Mostly because they come from other men and not from what God taught you.. You did go read the whole of the context to see if what you are being taught is true.. It isn’t so much you don’t believe me you have never even opened to Jesus to his message without looking first to what some man that calls himself a prophets teaches.. STOP IT.. Just believe God and what he teaching in His word.. I have spoken to many a Christian that I had only know through WalterMartin.com about the nature of God, the need for spiritual rebirth. We have agreed 100%. NO DIVISION AT ALL AND THE ONLY THING WE HAVE IN COMMON IS A BELIEF THAT THE BIBLE IS GOD’S INERRANT WORD. Why is that? How can it be that two people from different end of the nation, who have sat under the ministry of different pastors, who aren’t even of the same sect of Christianity can hold the same doctrine as truth? It because of the Bible.. We are both taught by the holy Spirit.. Then we run into someone like you who believe the party line of a religion and we automatically disagree especially as you bring in your extrabiblical nonsense into the discussion.. Stop it.. Get into His word the Bible and believe what He has there to teach you cast off all the extra STUFF and just take in what He says in his word. You don’t need me or a pastor to teach you.. The Holy Spirit WILL bring you to the cross and Jesus will be there waiting.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Jim, wherever truth comes from it can and needs to be confirmed by God. Otherwise you are depending on the source which can be deceived or deceiving.

            You are at 100% incorrect on what you theorize I know, believe or have done. You can only know what I tell you about myself and you don’t have to believe any of that.

            So everything you attribute to me is pure speculation on your part and according to the way your wife thinks, you are lying. Must be tough at home.

          • James Banta

            I will continue to do so, the anti mormon doctrine I read a lot is the Holy Bible.. I am not planning on stopping my reading any time soon.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            That’s interesting. The Bible is one of the Standard Works of the Lord’s church. And you think it is anti-Mormon doctrine. You seem to have a lot of disconnects, Jim.

        • Grundune

          You are confused about what Mormons believe and teach. I suggest you go to http://www.mormon.org and learn what is and isn’t doctrine. You may not agree with it, but at least you won’t sound so ignorant to those of us who actually know what the Lord’s church teaches.

          If you want to criticize something it is best not to state what you think it is, get it wrong and then criticize your own inaccuracy. That allows the rest of us to sit on the sidelines and chuckle at you. Of course, every now and then we’ll interject something to keep you going.

          • Ladybug91

            When Mormons stop preaching false doctrines and believe in the true God and Jesus Christ and repent and accept who Jesus is then there will be hope for all of you. Your snide comment here only proves the arrogance of your religion and thinking you are a member of the ONLY true church. Jesus never had a church, never started a church. His purpose was to come to earth, preach the gospel, and to die. If people would only read his word and take it to heart, they will be saved and will find themselves standing at the right hand of God someday. Grun, are you a sinner? Have you ever told a lie, even a small white lie? Have you ever stolen anything, or been unfaithful to your spouse? God can never accept sin. What answer would you give God when someday you are standing before Him and He asks, Grun, why should I allow you into my kingdom? What would you say?

          • Grundune

            Ladybug91, care to elaborate on your statement that “Jesus…never started a church.”

            You’d better recant and quit before your ignorance is exposed from the Bible.

          • James Banta

            The Church began at Pentecost when the believers were given the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Before that there was no Church.. Even in Acts 2:47 it is said that Jesus is adding to His Church. In the mortal life of Jesus it is said that He build his Church but it wasn’t until after Pentecost when that work started.. There was no Church until that day.. The church is a living thing and organism. The bride of Her Lord. It is not an organization as mormonism insist it is.. again you show a lack of knowledge of the Bible.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            That’s interesting that you equate Pentecost with the advent of the Church. I don’t know of any argument against that although I’m sure that Jesus felt He had established it while He was still mortal. But it probably took off after the spirit was poured out on the Christians at Pentecost.

            Your inability to understand figurative speech is breath taking. I’m amazed that an individual who can cut and paste anti-Mormon propaganda with such great alacrity, is so slow witted to take everything in the Bible literally. You have missed out on so much beauty, understanding and intensity that can only come from one who can understand the scriptures as the author intended. Pity.

          • James Banta

            You can’t even trust Him enough to believe that He is the YHWH, the I AM, much less know His mind about when the Church started.. The believers had no authority until they was endowed with power from on High. That occurred at Pentecost. Until that time the disciples were students of the truth. After that day they will filled with the power of God the Holy Spirit..

            It is stupid of you to make a charge against me without showing even one example of that action on my part.. Do I believe what God has given me in His word? YES! I don’t see that in you, as God insists that He is one, Denying that and believing a man instead the man Joseph Smith teaching that there is not one God but three,,

            I miss nothing bu reading into the Bible that which just isn’t there.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Jim, I think you need to edit that last sentence or do you actually you read into the Bible that which just isn’t there and you don’t miss it.

          • James Banta

            Thank you..

        • Grundune

          I have to agree with you on one statement, we don’t have the same understanding of who we worship.

          You’ve been a little vague about your concept of God, because you are too busy denigrating what you think Mormons worship and, by the way, never getting it correct.

          If your concept of God is the trinity, then I have to say we are different. Mormons don’t worship a concept put together by a committee convened by a non-Christian 300 years after the birth of Christ. We worship the Jesus Christ of the New Testament and the Book of Mormon.

          • Ladybug91

            No you don’t!! You worship a created being, and the Bible and your BOM both say Jesus is GOD! Plus your BOM describes him as being part of the Trinity. Your BOM also says, there is but ONE GOD! Even the witnesses to the BOM said there was but one GOD…..not one in purpose. So which is it? I think you are the one who is confused as Mormonism is a confusing and contradictory religion. How does anyone keep anything straight?
            Get out your BOM and open it to Alma 11:26-29, “And Zeezrom said unto him; thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said; yeah, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said; is there more then one God? And he answered, NO!
            Then JS told the world in 1844 in a sermon, in a meeting in a grove, east of the temple there he taught, “I have Always DECLARED God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from the Father, and the Holy Ghost a distinct personage and spirit; and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.” If this is in accordance with the NT, low and behold! we have three Gods. Any how, they are plural and who can contradict it!” History of the Church, vol. 6 pg. 473.
            So, I have studied everything there is about Mormonism as I questioned my religion I was raised in & tried to make sense of it and prove to myself that what I’d been taught all my life was true. The more I studied the more I kept finding everything was a lie. You believe a lie Grun but either your afraid to admit it or you are willing to believe anything. God gave you a mind with intelligence to think and reason but Mormonism takes that away from all its members. It holds onto it’s members with fear along with the fact that if one leaves it, they will be treated badly by family and friends. It’s all about appearances and acceptance. I chose to follow my Savior even though it meant rejection by my family. You know my parents have passed on along with my oldest brother but to attend their funerals was the most agonizing thing I’ve ever experienced. All because I knew that my parents and brother were not with the Lord but in Hell.
            If you’re going to tell lies, you have to have a good memory. JS did not possess a good memory in this case did he?

          • Grundune

            Are you interested in finding the truth or are you just interested in confusing yourself and others? Do you want to know if the concept of the trinity is true or if there is Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost?

            To test your knowledge and resolve, tell me what is the first divine principle we come to when reading the Book of Mormon? Hint: you will not be able to go to your anti-Mormon sources for the answer.

          • Ladybug91

            What I have found within your BOM is this, the “first divine principle” as you’ve put it can be found in 11Nephi 31:21. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are ONE GOD. For crying out loud! I don’t need to know whether the Trinity is true, no, that is a problem you and ALL Mormons have an issue with. You glaze over the scriptures within your one major Standard Work and deny that there is but ONE GOD, demanding that there are 3 gods, or worse demanding that only the Father is God and denying the divinity of Christ. Are you getting dizzy yet since you continue to go in circles. First you make a comment that I am intelligent and now insult me with this latest comment. Bipolar are you? Or maybe just short term memory loss?

          • Grundune

            Wrong, care to try again. Remember, I warned you that your anti-Mormon propaganda won’t help you.

          • Ladybug91

            Splitting hairs now? 11 Nephi as I have read it is in my opinion the ” first divine principle” I came across. If there is one that you want to claim that is your opinion. I don’t need to use anti-Mormon propaganda as you so rudely put it, this is what I feel answers you. What I told you is correct since 11 Nephi comes long before Alma or Mosiah or of course 111Nephi….need I go on?
            According to your Articles of Faith, the first Article is Faith. There is no passage within the BOM that mentions all those articles at the same time. Without going into your Articles of Faith no one could tell that Faith was the first principle. The BOM never says that it is the first principle of your gospel. The first truth that I have found is there in 11Nephi 31:21. Take it or leave it. This is such a insignificant question and I feel off topic. Oh, there is a great website, waltermartin.com if you care to join and discuss Mormonism with many people. There are many knowledgeable Mormons and Christians with lively discussions. I think you’d enjoy it very much.

          • Grundune

            Just testing you to determine if you have read the Book of Mormon or just reference your anti-Mormon propaganda. You just reference your propaganda.

          • Ladybug91

            As I see it Grun: you are a very evil man! You think it is funny to play games with people?? All the signs of a very sick man! For someone to say the types of things you have to a total stranger ALL because they don’t accept the lies of your faith and have sincerely tried to show you that what you’ve been taught goes against the Bible and God, then there is no hope for you or anyone who thinks as you.
            Then you leave a message,a laughable message quoting from Shakespeare and it is just to much that that is all you could come up with. As an example of your church, you FAIL miserably!! It is people of your church who behave as you that caused me to question Mormonism. I thank you for reminding me of that fact….you have been fantastic! You claim to be a member of the, “only true Church on earth” and claim a faith in Jesus Christ but you broke one of God’s commandments, one of the 10 which He gave to Moses. God must have felt these commandments were very important and yes, they are,for all decent people and societies have acknowledged them and have lived by them. You have taken it upon yourself to ignore these things and God will judge you harshly in the end. So Grun, tell me who is a Christian, for with your example here, you are FAR from one. I suggest you get on your knees and pray that your sins be forgiven for the commandment you have broken here in front of everyone on this site.
            Your comment to me last night has been reported. I have no idea what the Moderators of this site will do. I hope that they will kick your backside out of here for you have broken the rules of this site. You know, I’ve been on other sites, CARM and Walter Martin and you would fit in like a carbon copy of how rude, insensitive and thoughtless other members of your church can be. You should be ashamed of your behavior and how much I wish I knew who your Bishop was as I wouldn’t hesitate to contact him and inform him of your,conduct unbecoming of a member of the LDS Church. Every member a missionary? How do you ever expect to win people to become converts with such hate in your heart? I feel so sorry for you. Good day.

          • Grundune

            You want me kicked off this site, just when your husband and I are getting warmed up? Better check with him and while you are at it, tell him you think Christ didn’t establish His Church. He needs to get his own house in order.

          • Ladybug91

            And what makes you think that my husband is on this site? I am intrigued!

          • Grundune

            He thinks he is.

          • James Banta

            What difference does that make? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            None and it’s no big secret either.

          • James Banta

            Who do you think showed her that truth?!?!? .IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You showed her what truth? She wrote that Christ didn’t establish a church and you know He did.

          • James Banta

            I know that the Church came into being at Pentecost and not before.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            So go tell your wife, man!

          • James Banta

            She referenced the BofM. I am starting to believe you though the BofM is anti mormon propaganda.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            She didn’t read the Book of Mormon, otherwise, she would have come to a divine principle long before 2 Nephi 31:21. Such information is not divulged in anti-Mormon propaganda, but she thought that she could get away with it. She should have just starting reading the Book of Mormon.

          • James Banta

            The first real truth in the BofM Is in fact the only truth that is in the BofM and that is the teaching that there is one God.. Other than that it is a work of total fiction based in the myths and legions of the lost 10 tribes in America that has been going around since the first Catholic priests arrived on these shores.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Lost 10 tribes??? You haven’t read it either. Shame on you.

          • James Banta

            There you go again doubting my word. Here is my evidence:

            Manasseh ben Israel. [Mikveh Yisra’el] Esto es, Esperança de Israel.

            Amsterdam : Semuel Ben Israel Soreiro, Año 5410 [i.e., 1650].

            “The Hope of Israel,” published here in Ladino, or Judeo-Spanish,
            endeavored to prove that the Lost Tribes of Israel were to be found in
            America. A prominent part of the text is the narrative of Aharon Levi,
            alias Antonio de Montezinos, who reported on contact with South
            American Indians who continued the practices of ancient Judaism. The
            work was also published in English and Latin, intended to promote the
            readmission of the Jews to England. (http://brown.edu/Facilities/John_Carter_Brown_Library/judaica/pages/tribes.html)

            That shows that the myths of the lost ten tribes of Israel were not new with Smith.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            My apologies. I meant to say, “You haven’t read it [the Book of Mormon] either. Meaning I already know your wife hasn’t base on her demonstrated ignorance of it.

            You were talking about the Book and Mormon and assumed it was about the lost 10 tribes. You are busted, Jim.

          • James Banta

            I am not busted you are in your lack of knowledge about the tribes of Israel! Because I don’t know anything about it the BofM I will tell you that Lehi is said to be from the tribe of Manasseh (Alam 10:3). I hate to tell you but Manasseh was of the Northern Kingdom. One of the lost 10 tribes.. Other than the Jarodites the BofM is all about Lehi and his family and he was a member of what is refereed to as one of the lost 10 tribes.. My goodness your Biblical knowledge is poor! IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Find me a Bible scholar who claims that remnants of the northern tribes were not living in Judah after the division.

            You said, “… a work of total fiction based in the myths and legions of the lost 10 tribes in America”. The lost 10 tribes were deported into Babylon and most are still “lost” unless you’ve found them. Some escaped Jerusalem before the fall and some returned out of Babylon. The rest are still lost.

            You are totally busted, James Banta.

          • James Banta

            Since when is the BofM considered anti mormon propaganda? I saw nothing is Lady bugs comments from the Tanners, CARM or any other source you could call ANTI.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You must be blind.

          • James Banta

            Point it out if you can,, The only reason you haven’t is because it’s not there!.. You might be schizophrenic (Seeing things that don’t exist). Maybe you should see a doctor.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You said, “I saw nothing is [in] Lady bug[']s comments from the Tanners, CARM or any other source you could call ANTI..”

            I’m am saying, look again. Those folks make a living denigrating the Lord’s restored church. Any comment from them about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, unless taken out of context, is designed to deceive God’s children about His church.

          • James Banta

            Maybe you can see the same subjects and many of the same quotes but she is getting her information form LDS sources not those you call anti..She,quoted the BofM not Shadow or Reality. She quoted Joseph Smith not Matt Slick.. You didn’t see that.. Again your blindness is being manifest.. Most of her quotes are from the KJV of the Bible.. You meed to look again I can see fine.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I am use to people quoting from the LDS standard works to make invalid points. Your wife is no different. She is just as corrupt and/or ignorant as they are. She has nothing new to offer and she certainly isn’t interested in learning anything. Nor are you.

          • James Banta

            Are you really saying that quoting the LDS standard works in context is a way to make invalid points.. I agree!!! But if you see what I or she or any other christian here quotes from your scriptures as out of context please show that we are wrong.. Put the quotes in the context you see that corrects our errors and post them. I would do just that if you were to quote from the Bible out of context.. I have already corrected the interpretations the LDS hold from Isaiah and Ezekiel from their error.. I would do it again. Each time you misuse the scripture.. So go ahead show us our error in quoting your scripture.. Have we even done so? I doubt you and your complaint.. What it is in reality is you get caught in a question from ladybug you couldn’t handle and started attacking her saying that she is making invalid point using your books.. That is not just wrong but shows your laziness in your posts.. You wouldn’t want to spend any time making sure you are correct in what you say here,, Remember you called the Rock revelation and then said what was built on the Rock is revelation.. You haven’t yet even checked that with your superior in the ward have you. Just too lazy.. IHS jim

          • JobRon

            Grundune: As far as James and Ladybug go, I learned a saying early in my life that states, and I don’t know who the author was, A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still. That is where James and Ladybug are. You can dangle the truth in front of their eyes, but their mind is like cement, thoroughly mixed and set. They couldn’t see a light in front of them because they don’t want to.

          • Grundune

            I’ve been on that merry-go-round you are inviting me to board. The invitation comes from those who are “ever learning, but never coming to a knowledge of the truth…”.

            You wish to argue using evidence. You fail to consider two things, you are dependent on the veracity of that evidence and your understanding of it. And you are trying to prove something when God does not allow a proof to exist in the hands of His children.

            God reserves the proof to Himself, giving it only to those whom He knows are ready to receive it. Only through Him can you know the truth of all things. So if you are not ready to receive God’s proof, you can argue your evidence until the cows come home.

            God has promised that He will reveal wisdom to you, but you must ask with a sincere heart, real intent (no wavering) and faith in Jesus Christ. When you are ready and do this, you will have no need to continue to kick against the pricks.

          • James Banta

            Are you? Do you wish to continue ignoring the word of God as found in the Bible for the lies of a 19th century conman? What doctrine would you say allows the whole of the Bible to be true. The parts that teach the nature of God to be One, and the parts that teach that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God. Or the LDS doctrines that denies the bible in some way. I guess you have chosen to ignore the passages that call Jesus and the Holy Spirit God and you claim that only the Father is God.. That is choosing to ignore passages like John 1:1, Isaiah 9:6 and Acts 5:3-4. Or do you believe that they are Gods just that they became gods after the Father was already God? Again you MUST deny the Bible as it says that no God was formed before or after the one true God.. Grundune if you deny God how can you say you believe in Him.. There is no other explanation for the nature of God other than the Trinity that allows God to be One Lord and yet include the persons of the Son, and the Holy Spirit to be God. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I don’t ignore truth just as you don’t seem to understand what you read. You seem very confused.

            You are only asking me because you think your reasoning will cast aspersions upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you really are interested in discovering the truth of all things, you will consult your Heavenly Father.

            If you are so enthralled with the false concept known as the trinity. Try explaining it to me and use the same standards of understanding you demand of me.

            I’m waiting…..

          • James Banta

            I seem confused.. I saw you say that you know your religion of which mormons tell me is contained in the Bible and yet you didn’t know about grace and works being mutually exclusive in their need for salvation. I showed you Romans 11:6 that explains the relationship.. I guess you don’t knpw what to say about that..

            I talk with my Lord daily.. I read His word daily. He assures me that He is God, that there is no other. He showers we with his love and grace. It is you that throws filth on the Lord and despises His Body the Church. It was Jesus that added me to His Body not any man. You required the permission of men through a priesthood that in it’s self in a man invented authority.

            I should tell you you have to do that,. Didn’t you want me to teach your doctrines from the BofM? Still I will tell you again about the Doctrine of the Trinity that even a a stupid person can understand.. You aren’t stupid now are you?

            God has told us again in His word that He is one Lord (Deut 6:4) That doctrine is confirmed by Jesus (Mark 12:29). God explains his singularity to us through the Prophet Isaiah (Isaiah 43:10-11). He even goes so far that He tells the prophet that He knows of no other God (Isaiah 44:8).. So the first fact we must know to agree with the doctrine of the trinity is that there is one God.. I am sure I have biblically accomplished that fact..

            In the Bible the Father is called God by Jesus Himself (John 20:17). Are we agreed that the Father is God? Ok

            Jesus is called God in the Bible (Isaiah 9:6, and John 1:1). Will you agree that Jesus is God? I hope so.. If not say so and we can assume that you deny the basic doctrines of the Christian faith..

            Peter the Apostle identified the Holy Spirit as God (Acts 5:3-4). He showed ys that Ananias,and Sapphira had lied to the Holy Spirit. They didn’t lie to him but to God.. Is the Holy Spirit God or was Peter a pagan?

            Ok Now we have 3 different persons all identified as God.. Still with me? Now make Moses’ Jesus’ and Isaiah’s truth about the singularity of God and the revelation of the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all be God’s truth? The only way I can find is that these three persons are the one true God, is found in the doctrine of the Trinity. There it is taught that these three are one God. Three persons separate and distinct yet the same nature, the same Being the same essence. In that doctrine there is no need to add to the scripture to say that they are one in purpose. Yes they are and yet they are one deeper and more than that. They are one God..PERIOD.. You either believe God though his word or deny it.. I see denial in Mormonism..

            Joseph Smith taught the members in his church that there are three Gods and you know it.. This is the man that changed a scripture he wrote, A man that couldn’t even confirm the doctrine of God he started specking about in the 1820’s until he wrote his history now found in the PofGP in the from 1838-1842. There is a older copy of that vision that didn’t include the presence of the Father. All that confusion even after he testifies that he say God.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Oh stop the new age pastoral new speak. It is so yesterday’s pop culture. God’s principles are eternal. If you can’t understand what I am saying, I will try to write more slowly. Intentional misunderstanding on your part is also suspected or perhaps you HAVEN’T read any of God’s revelations to His church in “modern” times as you claimed.

            Allow me to explain on a very basic level grace and works.

            Grace is the gifts and powers of God that bring men unto perfection through the atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to all the laws and ordinances of God.

            We will be rewarded for our good works on Christ’s behalf and at His behest. Obedience to all of Christ’s laws requires works.

            The Council of Nicea convened by a sun worshiper was an attempt to reconcile the language of the Bible that confused the early saints. You can believe them, who didn’t claim they were divinely inspired, or you can believe a modern prophet who claims he was inspired. In any case, you should get confirmation from God who has promised that He will give you the wisdom you desire. Unfortunately I don’t see that happening. You are too arrogant and prideful in your learning. One must be like a small child, humble and teachable.

            You have been deceived by men who have grievously maligned a servant of the Lord. You will take your place with those who have done this to His servants through the ages. You are not defending “the faith”, you a fighting against it, in favor of a cobbled together belief system added to and subtracted from over the centuries. You are rejecting the Lord’s restoration of His gospel and more, you are fighting against Him.

          • James Banta

            Since when is doctrinal statements directly gleaned from the Bible”new age pastoral new speak?

            Ok here is an example of my lack of knowledge of the D&C.. In Section 84 the Lord command a temple be built and raised in that generation.. He says ” that this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, With that commandment given and promise from God made that it would be done. I want you to remember what Nephi said about doing as the LORD COMMANDS.

            1 Nephi 3:7
            I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the
            Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments
            unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

            Now look what happened with the commandment to build the temple in Far West.

            D&C 124:44
            Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of
            the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go
            with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and
            cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.

            Where was the way to accomplish what Smith’s god had commanded. Nephi’s god came through for him but Smith’s god couldn’t overcome the mobs of Missouri? This is a false god or had nothing to do with god at all. Either way it proves that either the mormon god is an invention of a man, or that Smith is just a terrible false prophet.. Does it matter whether the mormon god is a lie or Smith was a false prophet? What it amounts to is that mormonism is NOT of God but an invention of man, The only real truth can be found in the God of the Bible, Jesus the Christ.. IHS jm

          • Grundune

            Be very careful about what you say against your Heavenly Father.

          • Grundune

            Just giving you the answer doesn’t seem to work. So you must work for this one. Find the answer to these questions and you will be able to figure it out yourself. Who was Zeezrom and what were his motives? What is the concept of the Godhead? In what year was the false concept of the trinity developed? What year did Amulek contend with Zeezrom? What did Alma say about Amulek’s contention with Zeezrom, and finally what was the name of Nephi’s horse?

            If you can answer all but the last question, you will have enough to figure it out. If not, study what the Lord’s church teaches today. You’ll have to attend to do that or listen to conferences on the BYU channel. Good luck, I just know you’ll succeed.

            On a more serious note, I get the distinct feeling that you were excommunicated for immorality. And you are trying to avenge yourself and at the same time desperately trying to convince yourself that the church isn’t true.

          • Ladybug91

            You have gone to far now and have caused anger in my heart which I do not like nor appreciate. I don’t have to sit here and have to read you breaking one of God’s 10 Commandments, that being, bearing false witness against thy neighbor!! How quickly you MORMONS jump to conclusions huh. It is a serious thing to make foolish assumptions about a stranger. You have never met me, you have no idea who I am other then from comments I have made to you about your religion and then you slander me on a public forum? Don’t think I will take this lying down for your post will be reported! I maybe a woman but I am not one to back down nor be intimidated by any man or anyone!
            I am not going to play games or do scripture chases either! I did enough of that when I attended seminary for four years! Here in Utah, starting in 9th grade, all LDS kids have the choice whether they want to take seminary and they can take it for four years, which I did.
            Everything about your BOM is fairy tales! Christ never came to the Americas. There was never any people who traveled here in submarine type ships either with holes in both the top and bottom. My husband is a sailor and believe me, he knows about sailing in all kinds of conditions. There were no horses, cattle, pigs, goats, elephants, no barley, wheat, silk, wheeled vehicles, iron, steel, metal swords, knowledge of Hebrew or Egyptian, military fortifications during the time frame of your BOM which was around 600 BC. Horses never were here til the Spanish invaders arrived and brought them. What is ZIF???
            The BOM quotes Malachi chapters 3 & 4 word for word from the King James version of the Bible. Why is that? Why would two groups of people who hated each other travel thousands of miles to have a war? And why won’t your Church Prophet allow any excavating of the Hill Cumorah?? I can tell you why; because nothing would be found!! Why is the word, Adieu used at the end of the book of Jacob? Adieu is a French word meaning, good day. French didn’t exist in 600 BC. Funny how JS’s mother used that word often. JS senior had a dream of a path leading to a tree with a large spacious house off in the distance and it filled with people who were laughing at him. Hmmmm, seems JS junior used his father’s dream to come up with Lehi’s dream….how convenient.
            Included within your BOM are 27,000 words which were often copied verbatim from the King James version of the Bible. 3 Nephi 24 and 25 are copied near verbatim from Malachi 3 and 4. It is interesting the italicized words were included in the BOM just as they are found in the King James version but we all know when that Bible was compiled. Why were the italicized words added to the King James Bible, what are their purpose if you want to ask questions.
            I have done my best to explain what I believe and what I found during my studies and I was never desperate; that again your assumption. I came to know that Mormonism was false and leads people away from the true God and Jesus Christ. I have tried to be civil in my comments but here you have committed a serious sin and everyone now knows your true nature. This will be something you will one day have to answer to God about…..you have my sympathy :(
            At this point, I don’t think you can be civil in continuing with this discussion so this will be my last comment to you. When a person has to stoop to name calling and making false accusations, it is time to end anymore discussion. I have told you I will pray for you and I will, for I see you are in desperate need of a kinder spirit and of course, you need to be saved. Only the Holy Spirit can open your heart and mind but that is where prayer comes in. Be well.

          • Grundune

            Methinks she doth protest too much.

          • James Banta

            WHO under heaven do you think you are God Himself? What evidence do
            you have that Ladybug was removed from mormonism for committing any sin?
            WHAT? If you have evidence produce it. If you have none understand God
            has spoken to such a person that would make such an unsupported charge
            against someone else.

            Exodus 20:16
            Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

            You know this is one of the Ten Commandments. The central statements of the
            LAW of God? Here God Commands important behaviors that if broken can
            lead to damnation. Commands like never to have others Gods before Him.
            Not to make idols, and never to commit murder. And you place someone you
            don’t know, someone you have never met into a group that breaks those
            Laws? Most mormons of your ilk love to quote James 2 as he teaches that
            faith without works is dead but as they do that they ignore his other
            teachings in that chapter. In verse 10 he teaches us that “… whosoever
            shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of
            all.” It is clear that because you have no knowledge of this woman that
            you have broken that ninth commandment by bearing false witness against
            her.. Because of the teaching of James you are not just guilty of
            breaking that commandment but are guilty before God of breaking the
            whole Law.

            What kind of Christian makes such false accusations?
            You need to take this SIN to God confess it as sin and turn from that
            kind of malicious talk..

            The Bible teaches that there is one God.. Jesus confirmed that Doctrine, first given to Mose, in Mark 12:29 there he teaches that the “The Lord our God is one Lord” Isaiah is told by God that no other God other than Himself was ever formed (Isaiah 43:10) God then said ” Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Is that true? Did Joseph Smith know things about GODS that the Mighty God, The Everlasting Father didn’t know? When I have
            presented these scripture passages to most LDS they counter and say
            “That is only for this world”. Let me tell you that Joseph Smith said:

            “I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for
            that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all
            congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has
            been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen
            years.

            I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a
            separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy
            Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit, and these three constitute
            three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with
            the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are
            plural: and who can contradict it?” (1902 text of History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The History editor was B. H. Roberts, a prominent LDS leader. Roberts’ assignment was to take the manuscript history produced by Joseph Smith (1805-1844) and his clerks between 1838 and 1857 and publish it together with explanatory notes. The history was written as though dictated by Joseph Smith, however he dictated only a small portion of it.
            The bulk of the manuscript was based on Church records. This is NOT anti
            mormon writings nor did I get it from any anti mormon source.. This is
            History of the Church collected by stanch LDS historians)

            What this shows is an admission by Joseph Smith that He teaches against the
            words of Jesus, Against the word of God that came to Isaiah. He demanded
            that there are three God for this world. In that alone mormonism is proven false. All your insistence that it is God’s one true Church is total garbage because it denies the scripture and the nature and Being of God. Always IHS..jim

          • Grundune

            Your accusation of bearing false witness is based on your lack of understanding of what bearing a false witness is. Let me help you out. Someone who “bears false witness” has to have knowledge of something and then lie about it.

            I didn’t claim knowledge of your wife’s suspected misconduct, I simply stated that “I get the distinct feeling that you were excommunicated for immorality.” A feeling is not knowledge of an event, it is simply what was stated, A FEELING.

            However, based on her and your actions in response, you and she have done nothing but inflame my suspicions.

          • James Banta

            Bearing False witness is to bring a false report (Exodus 23:1-2).. This you have done an d because of that I bring a charge against you of bearing false witness.

            The men that brought a false witness against Ruth for Idolatry had no knowledge that she had or hadn’t worshiped false God. They wanted to think so and made up their own story. ThaT IS just WHAT YOU ARE doing HERE. You want to find a reason for the fact that we left the LDS church other than we just couldn’t believe the lies any longer.. You have invented a reason and have made it public. That is a false witness.. My God have mercy on you..

            So where do we know you from WalterMartin or CARM? Or would you rather continue lying.. I can say that here!!! IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Unless you and your wife start acting like grown ups and start making even a modicum of sense, I’m going to have to conclude that my original speculation was correct and the both of you are trying to focus attention away from her alleged “event”.

          • James Banta

            I don’t care what you think you see here or what you do. You are not the Mod here.. As for making sense it is you that is out in left field if you are even in the ball part as to what you believe and what the Bible teaches,, IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Oh no you aren’t, oh yes I am, oh not you’re not, oh yes I am…

          • James Banta

            Non responsive!

          • Ladybug91

            GRUN! Your suspicions have no place here and I could care less and I know no one else does either! Your assuming again! Have you EVER given it any thought that your feelings could be wrong and are given to you by Satan? No one should ever assume or accept anything on a feeling! Many a man has lost a lot of many on a feeling, as in a man betting on the horses. Your description doesn’t cut it and you don’t have a clue as to what you’re talking about. DO take this to heart, the Hebrew Bible contains a number of prohibitions for false witness, LYING(which you have done here), spreading false reports (which you have done here), etc. A charge was established only on the evidence of two or three witnesses. In cases where false testimony was suspected, the judges were to make a thorough investigation, and if false testimony were proven, the false witness was to receive the punishment he had intended to bring on the person falsely accused. For example, since murder was a capital crime, giving false testimony in a murder case was subject to the death penalty. Those eager to receive or listen to false testimony were also subject to punishment. You show to everyone here that you have an evil mind saying you have a feeling I was ex’d from your church because of immorality. Oh, I can see it now, you would love to have me tell you you were right and then I could imagine ALL the evil and vile thoughts running through your disgusting mind! Who is the Christian here GRUN! It is NOT YOU! I charge you again with bearing false witness against me as you had to make up some filthy lie based on a feeling? SATAN is working overtime in your life! He has you wrapped around his evil finger, good going!

          • Grundune

            Statistics are not on your side, Ladybug91. They show that members leave the church because of pride or immorality AND then, to get revenge, they start fighting against the church. You were not forced to spew your venom, you did it willingly. Statistically you have either been excommunicated or you’ve abandoned your church and broken your covenants with the Lord. I frankly don’t care which, the results will be the same.

          • Ladybug91

            Your are to much!! You can’t post things such as this without some kind of reference. I now ask for that reference as to these so called statistics!! You are here only to make yourself look foolish since you don’t have anything to back up your nonsense. You say people leave Mormonism because of pride or immorality? PLEASE…..grow UP! I left Mormonism because of my studies and comparing Mormonism with Biblical Christianity. DID you read that??? Comparing Mormonism with Biblical Christianity oh and of course reading your Church History. Have you ever taken the time to read it? I don’t know any Mormon other then historians who have nor would take time to do that. So until you can prove you statistics, then keep quiet. Your comment only proves that you listen to all the vicious lies that come from your church leaders! Besides, if and when someone from your church decides to leave, no one knows why. If someone is ex’d out of your church, no one is told why. There was a time when it would be announced over the pulpit during your priesthood meetings and I can see the men rushing home to tell their wives so all those tongues could begin wagging. REVENGE??? Again, grow UP! Where do you get these ridiculous ideas?? I tell people that I left your church due to study and finding it wanting because that is the truth; that it’s many doctrines don’t line up with the Bible. Where does the Bible teach temple marriage? Where does it teach man can become a god by living all the commandments and ordinances of your church? Where does it teach that men and women will produce spirit children if they gain their exaltation? Where does the Bible talk about exaltation for that matter? All these strange doctrines were man made, they never came from God. Mormonism wasn’t even invented til JS had his mental break down and claimed to have seen God. Course he couldn’t even keep the details of his vision straight since there are 3 different versions. Doesn’t it make you wonder if say, you had a vision where God appeared to you but somehow you weren’t sure of all the details? I doubt if such a thing happened, you would forget one moment. Was it God, was it God and Jesus Christ or was it an angel…..just what did JS see? What was he smoking that day? No one will ever know for sure, now will they? You are so quick to accept such a man but you turn your back on the truth of the Bible and God’s word. JS’s word means nothing, with the character he showed the world. Jesus Christ told us in his own words that we are to go out and preach to every nation. I do this to make people think and to see that they are lost and need salvation, that is NOT VENOM with those words, you have insulted the Almighty.
            My so called covenants, how can they be broken when they never existed? Again, made up lies from JS. My faith and trust and belief is Jesus Christ is ALL that I need and my salvation is guaranteed. John 3:16 and my favorite is 1 John 5:13, “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” High time you began reading what is really in the Bible and stop using Mormons eyes to do it and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you. Stop this, I have a feeling crap!! Feelings will only lead you further down the wide path, which leads to destruction. God is waiting. He loves you so much and took your place on the cross. Luckily for us, God is patient and He will never give up on you or I. If God wishes you to be part of his family there is no amount of fighting Him, for He will work in your heart and mind til you come to Him. His gospel is so simple and beautiful. He offers everyone a free gift, all one needs do is reach out and take it.

          • Grundune

            If you left for “intellectual reasons”, you are statistically insignificant. I hope that doesn’t make you feel worse, you aren’t really insignificant. That’s just a term.

            I, of course, don’t know which is worse. God will be the judge of that, but there is always the road back, if you can swallow your pride, humble yourself and repent. And that, my dear, is why I avoid sin, because swallowing one’s pride is horrible especially when one believes they are not wrong.

            As for your “simple” gospel, get your husband to explain the “simple” trinity. A gospel that has been worked over by will intentioned and some not so well intentioned folks over the years starts developing a case of the “mysteries”. And just where is there room for mysteries in a true gospel?

          • James Banta

            Richard.. I never called the Trinity a mystery. God is God and works mighty wonders.. One of them is that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one Lord. That is His revelation to us and He is trustworthy and worthy to be believed.. You want to doubt him it is your denial of His revelation to men not mine.. I have no need to apply any more to his word than He has given.. Not even the 19th century addition “In purpose” IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Who is Richard? Your wife made the same reference.

          • James Banta

            Richard like you was a mormon that attacked me for believing only what the Bible teaches and scoffed at us for not believing a a self proclaimed prophet, a mere man, a sinner.. You remind me of him so much I decided to use that name for you since you won’t tell anyone honestly who you are.. I don’t like your handle,, It’s ugly.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Remember, all of God’s prophets were mere men and sinners.

          • Ladybug91

            Grun: I am still waiting for the reference to your statement about these statistics, or did you pull that comment off the top of your head? Don’t post here if you can’t back up what you have said, for it will come back and bite you in the a**. If anyone is insignificant, that would be you. Course God in his love wouldn’t think that but then, I am not God. Your comment meant nothing to me, it is just more of the same crap that I lived with growing up for that is how my father felt about me. Women were not of any value to him except to clean his house and fix meals and have babies. If you have a question for Mr. Banta, then best ask him.
            “A gospel that has been worked over by will intentioned and some not so well intentioned folks over the years starts developing a case of the “mysteries.” These are your words not mine but I say the same about your founder, JS. There lies many mysteries but since JS loved the limelight, we do know a great deal of the type of man he was and that he was no example of a prophet of God. I ask again, why would anyone follow such a man? Also, a church that has all the answers, doesn’t allow any questions. A true gospel? Where are the scriptures to back up your doctrine that man can become a god and create his own world and populate said world. Or scripture showing where Jesus taught about temple marriage. And the scriptures I want evidence from is the Bible for it is the only book that I accept. Did you know that the idea that man can become a god came from Lorenzo Snow? It is what got all this concept going but it has never been canonized, why not? All Mormons cling to this concept as if it were gold but God himself NEVER taught such a thing. To believe you can become a god is saying the exact thing that got Lucifer kicked out of heaven. It is blasphemy to say such a thing.

          • Grundune

            You said, “…a church that has all the answers, doesn’t allow any questions” The Lord’s church has only the answers that God reveals. Your problem is that you don’t believe God still reveals anything so you discount anything that contradicts what you have previously heard and accepted without getting confirmation from God as James says you should. If you were sincere about knowing the truth of all things, you would avail yourself of His promise.

          • James Banta

            I have asked these same question to other LDS people I have conversation with. They didn’t know and commented that these were STUPID questions that have nothing to do with the truth of the BofM, or the prophetic gift of Joseph Smith.. Isn’t it enough for you to have someone tell you that they have read the BofM and find that it is mostly a copy directly of indirectly of many Biblical passages.. As an example the life story of Alma the Younger. From his persecution of the Church, through his conversion, and then his leadership and mission work afterward is identical to that of Paul.. Which one is a cheep copy and which is a true rendering of the events? I have read not just the BofM but the D&C, the PofPG, and the History of the Church at least the 1906 rendering compiled by BH Roberts. I want my witness of the Great and only true God Jesus to come from knowledge not someone else’s work..

            Where did you say your faith in mormonism, the BofM and Joseph Smith comes from? You pray about it and get a testimony? Didn’t Adam pray to God saying “Oh God hear the words of my mouth” and then Satan answered? If the Mormon Satan has that kind of power what assurance outside the assurance of being grounded in the word of God is there that your testimony wasn’t of Satan? Smith taught you how to tell if a spirit was of God, a resurrected being, or an angel of Satan. Do you remember how he said you could tell the difference? Did he himself ever use that test himself? There is no record that he did.. Even in JSH the two personages were never identified as God the Father and God the Son. Only that one was the son of the other..

            I have a copy of that same “vision” written in Joseph Smith own hand that never says a thing about the Father being present at all.. Never denigrates other churches.. Never insults the Christian teacher of those churches as being corrupt. I have a list of the almost 4,000 changes made in the BofM after the Angel Moroni was said to have taken the plates away from Smith when the translation had been completed.. How did Smith know he had made so many mistakes? He didn’t even have the original plates to make a comparison.. Maybe the Mormon God does speak like a hillbilly and it is more correct to say “As I was a journeying to see a very near kindred , behold an angel of the Lord appeared to me…” Yes those are the translated words of Amulek, but the translation was by the gift and power of God was it not? Therefore these are God’s words not those of Amulek. The BofM doesn’t show Smith to be a prophet, nor is it a second witness of Jesus.. What it is, is a 19th century fraud attempted to be perpetrated on the world by a skillful conman.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            So, James Banta, you also believe that God will let Satan answer the prayers of God’s children who are honestly seeking answers to very important questions. Allow me to assure you that God loves all His children and He wouldn’t deceive His children in such a cruel manner. Read James 1:5-6 and see if that helps your understanding.

          • James Banta

            I never said that, I said that it is taught in mormonism that Satan answers prayers.. Are you calling that a lie, do I need to drag the temple ceremony in here to show that I am being truthful? I have a copy I can do it.. Was Adam making a sincere prayer in that portrayal? He must not have been a true believer in God to have Satan answer him.. God promises WISDOM is james 1:5 NOT KNOWLEDGE.. When will mormons read what a passage teaches instead of inserting their own meaning.. “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Tim 2:15.. You have shown in your biblical ignorance that you have plenty to be ashamed of. The breaking the 9th commandment included.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Sorry James, it is not taught in the Lord’s church that Satan answers prayers. That is you being disingenuous.

          • James Banta

            Ok I will start quoting directly from the temple ceremony on this since you insist:

            ADAM: Brethren and sisters, this represents the telestial kingdom, or
            the world in which we now live. Adam, on finding himself in the lone and
            dreary world, built an altar and offered prayer, and these are the words
            he uttered:
            [Adam kneels at the altar and lifts his hands towards heaven, each arm
            raised to the square.]

            Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.

            Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.

            Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.

            [Lucifer comes into view.]

            LUCIFER: I hear you. What is it you want?
            ADAM: Who are you?
            LUCIFER: I am the god of this world.
            ADAM: You, the god of this world?
            LUCIFER: Yes. What do you want?
            ADAM: I am looking for messengers.
            LUCIFER: Oh, you want someone to preach to you. You want religion, do
            you? I will have preachers here presently. (http://ldsendowment.org/telestial.html)

            Would you like me to go on? So as you can see the LDS teach or have taught that Satan can answer their prayers. I am not sure what changes have been made to this part of the endowment over the years,, But when I took out my endowment this was the text.. Do you still insist that the LDS don’t teach that Satan is capable of answering their prayers? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            For someone who readily accepts vague and strained interpretations of scripture, you certainly require spoon feeding.

            My God, the Eternal Father and His Son, my God, Jesus Christ and my God the Holy Ghost who are also your Gods would not let us be deceived by allowing Satan to answer for Him.

            Did God allow Adam to be deceived by Satan? Of course not. Adam had walked and talked with God and Jesus Christ. Adam knew this imposter was not God. There was never any possibility that Adam would be deceived. So why do you think Mormons believe that God would let us be deceived in answering our prayers?

            My God doesn’t hand out stones when His children ask for bread. Matt 7:7-11.
            He giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not. James 1:5.

            Spoon feeding over.

          • James Banta

            Seems to me that Satan was with Adam for some time until Peter James and John finally showed up. God allowed Satan to be the only voice Adam heard for quite a while,, Maybe if Adam have had access to a Bible we would have gone to it to measure the devils answers to his prayer.. That however doesn’t negate the FACT that Satan had the power and did answer Adam’s prayers.. Has God sent you Peter James and John to give you the truth of God’s messages? No? Then why not go to God directly and see what he said about what ever issue you are questioning, like say I God one Lord? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I have gone to God as James suggests and He has confirmed to me that He has restored His church to the earth and it is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There is no higher source for truth.

          • James Banta

            I know you you say you worship. I disagree with that but Mormonism teaches that they worship God the Father in the name of Jesus. But the Father they worship isn’t the person the Bible reveals Him to be, Mormonism teaches that He is a being with a body as tangible as man’s (D&C 130:22).. The Jesus on the Bible teaches that 1. God is Spirit (John 4:24) 2. That a spirit as not a body of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39). The Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul taught that the Father is the Invisible God (Col 1:15).. Is a body as tangible as man invisible? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Invisible as in unseen or transparent?

          • James Banta

            Invisible as in INVISIBLE.. Look up the word if you can’t understand English.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Go back in time and acquire the understanding of the author!

          • James Banta

            If we can’t have our translators do that as that do their work then we have no scripture at all. We may as well say there is no God.. That would have the same authority.. If a translation doesn’t take into account the meaning of a passage in the time it was first recorded. it is worthless.. That is why a Lexicon hasn’t the full meaning of a real translation.. So the Greek word translated into the word invisible means INVISIBLE..and that word means: not visible; not perceptible by the eye.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I suggested you go back in time and acquire the understanding of the author because you refuse to do it the easy way and inquire of your Father in Heaven.

          • James Banta

            If I could do that over night I would do so.. But understanding that is as complex as learning to read the ancient languages.. It takes years. The translators have done that as they have completed their translations.. It more than translating one word to another is it translating the full meaning of the word as closely as it can be done.. Smith didn’t have that training neither do you.. Without a good translation you would have no idea what any passage of the Bible teaches.. You need the knowledge OF HOW TO TRANSLATE BEFORE YOU CAN HAVE THE WISDOM TO DO IT AS GOD DIRECTS.. Study to show yourself approved unto God and then you can rightly divide the word of truth.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Smith had God’s help. I’d accept that over a million learned translators.

        • Grundune

          I’ve been called worse. But usually by someone who has something more to say then just his opinions.

          • Ladybug91

            Seems that everything you’ve been saying is just YOUR opinion. Good gracious!

          • Grundune

            If you think what I’ve said is just my opinion, please go to http://www.mormon.org and investigate for yourself. I assumed in talking to you that I didn’t need to start at square one, but I guess I was wrong.

      • James Banta

        Do you deny that Jesus is the Mighty God, the everlasting Father? That would be a denial of the Bible.. If you do that you will have to show that either 1. Isaiah 9:6 is mistranslated, or 2. that the passage isn’t about Jesus.. Is there some other Child born unto us (mankind) that can be seen as the person this passage teaches to be that God, that Father? Your lack of biblical knowledge is showing AGAIN.. IHS jim

        • Grundune

          Jesus Christ has many titles. Almighty God, Savior of mankind, The Son of God, Father of our immortal souls, etc. Your problem is determining who the biblical writer is talking about.

          • James Banta

            You mean when I say that the Child that was born for us is Jesus you deny that? I say that that Person the Child born unto us IS the Mighty God the Everlasting Father the Prince of price.. How man Mighty Gods are there do you think? The Bible teaches that there is ONE.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I think you have gotten so twisted around the axle you don’t know what I’m saying. You have my permission to continue making things up and shooting them down. You don’t even need me. This is fun.

          • Ladybug91

            Christ is called many things within the Bible, James Banta has mentioned but a few. Are you saying that there is now more then one Jesus? It is not hard to understand who a Biblical writer is referring to in any scripture verse, if one knows their Bible. I guess you don’t with this comment.

          • Grundune

            Your husband seems to be having that problem.

      • Ladybug91

        But you pray to a false Jesus Christ so where are your prayers going? They’re going no where. Why can’t you see that JS made an idol in the Jesus you worship, a Jesus that doesn’t exist, never has but millions have been fooled to believe the lies that JS told to the world. Your Jesus was created just as the angels in heaven were created. How can that be when Christians such as myself believe Jesus has been in existence forever along with God the Father and the Holy Spirit? The idea of the Trinity is foreign to Mormons and you seem confused by the idea. You don’t need to over think it, all it takes is some faith.

        • Grundune

          You pray to the product of a committee of men. And madam, there is no one that is not confused by that idea. I’ve suggested that you explain it, but you don’t seem to be able to.

    • PaulNSH

      xiqtem wrote: “you are destined for an eternal hell of God’s wrath being poured out on you.” So you’re saying that no matter what I do, if my beliefs are not right then I’m doomed forever? That sounds more like the Muslim’s God. I refuse to worship such an unreasonably arbitrary and vengeful being. The God I worship is all-loving and fair.

      • xiqtem

        It is because God is loving that He must punish law breakers. If He didn’t He would be unjust. Since God can not be unjust He must punish the law breakers. If a man raped and killed your mother then told the judge, “Yes, I killed her, but I have given all of my money to charity and helped the widows.” and the the judge let him go you would be angry because he was a corrupt judge. A good, just judge would say, “All of those things are irrelevant. You Have broken the laws and are guilty you must be punished.”

      • James Banta

        If you aren’t born again you will not see the Kingdom of God.. That is the word of Jesus. You can deny that but that truth will never change,, IHS jim

        • Grundune

          Duh.

          • James Banta

            Very intelligent response.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Duh.

  • Nancy

    Ok, here’s a question: If a man and his wife are faithful in the church, marry in the temple and follow the Book of Mormon, they are going to be a god and goddess of their own planet and be sealed with their children forever… Uh.. wait, what about the children? What if THEY marry and live the same kind of life their parents did? Don’t THEY get to be gods and goddesses of THEIR planet? OF COURSE NOT! Because it’s IMPOSSIBLE and FALSE TEACHINGS! But, you will NEVER get this through a Mormon’s mind, because they are BLINDED by a FALSE so-called PROPHET! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFF.. I MEAN POSTUM! There IS a way out! Read the BIBLE!

    • souptwins

      People getting “their own planet” is NOT LDS doctrine and a complete myth so the premise of your argument is invalid.

      • sha49tn

        Not sure about the planet thing, but I KNOW they believe they’ll by gods, too, if they live a perfect life.

        • Grundune

          Who lives a perfect life???

          • kalamawashington

            Matthew 5:48.

          • Grundune

            I know, I know and I’m trying, but it looks like Christ is going to be the only one.

          • James Banta

            According to you yes, He is the only one worthy.. You sure have shown you aren’t worthy.. To a Christian we have this promise:

            I Cor 5:21
            For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

            We (Christians) give Jesus our sin. He gives us His righteousness. In that way we are perfect before God just as we are commanded to be in Matthew 5:48.. You don’t know much about the Bible do you.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Is that a beam in your eye, James?

          • James Banta

            That is the requirement, even if it is through repentance (D&C 14:7). The problem being people like you BREAK the LAW of GOD, but still feel you have done nothing wrong.. No repentance. no forgiveness, no forgiveness no exaltation, right? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Right. Except God will decide not you, James.

          • James Banta

            God has decided.. You can find His decision in John 3:16.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Wasn’t there James, try again.

          • Ladybug91

            Do you not know what John 3:16 says? “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son; that whosoever believes in Him, shall NOT PERISH but have everlasting life.” So God with this one verse has made it quite clear. If one believes in Jesus Christ, they shall not perish but have everlasting life. It is so simple. Why do you insist on making God’s gospel so difficult. It is beautiful. God shows us His love everyday. He loved us enough to send Jesus to earth to be the final sacrifice and take our place on the cross. We don’t deserve His love, for our hearts are evil, we are sinners. God can never accept sin so we needed a Savior.

          • Grundune

            God’s gospel is not difficult and it is preached by His church continually. Why don’t you relax and listen. Ask questions and learn. Then confirm it is true with God.

          • James Banta

            That is where you need to be right now. It is clear that your knowledge and understanding of REAL scripture is far from coming up to that of a student much less a teacher.. STOP LISTEN AND LEARN.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You left out confirm with God. That is the most important step.

          • James Banta

            Just what to you think listening is? Are you really as stupid as you come across? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Confirming something with God is more than just listening, Jim.

          • James Banta

            It is there you are just too Blind to see it.. He decided that all who Believe in Jesus will mot perish but have eternal life.. As I said the decision has been made. In believing in Jesus there is life. and since mo unclean thing can enter the Kingdom. All of a believers sins are covered in the blood of Jesus.. See it was there you are just blind to God’s grace though faith in Jesus..And you call me blind.. If that wasn’t so sad it would be funny. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            It just occurred to me that you don’t respond. You just start spitting out fragments of old sermons whether they apply to what I said or not and accuse me of not believing it. I’m tempted to just let you argue with yourself and see who wins.

          • James Banta

            Again your spiritual blindness is showing through very clearly.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            There are none so blind as those who will not see. I really enjoyed saying that. By the way, this all started because you accused me of breaking the law and you must realize by now that your opinion has only a little bit of credibility with me. You understand, I trust you, but will verify.

          • James Banta

            Yours have none with me.. You have proven to be a servant of the accuser of the brothern (Rev12:10). Keep it up everyone no knows what you are and who you serve.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Tired of being flogged, Jim?

          • James Banta

            Is that the next thing you would like to see me go through? I my health it would kill me.. So why would you believe i SHOULD BE? Jesus already stood in my place and took my stripes.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Flogged by the truth, Jim. Must I explain everything.

        • PaulNSH

          Don’t have to be perfect. Only Christ was perfect. Here is what Polycarp (69-155 AD) said. Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. Some modern scholars believe he compiled and published the Bible:
          Polycarp 5:2 For if we be well pleasing unto Him in this present world, we shall receive the future world also, according as He promised us to raise us from the dead, and that if we conduct ourselves worthily of Him we shall also reign with Him, if indeed we have faith.

          • Grundune

            Sounds like Polycarp wrote before the apostasy. He seems to mirror the teachings of the early church.

          • James Banta

            Just what apostasy are you speaking about.. You make it sound as though there was some kind of complete falling away.. Jesus told us that such a thing could never happen,, He told us that He would build His Church and even that gates of hell could not prevail again it (Matthew 16:18).. Is this another denial of the Lord’s promises to His Church? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Jesus said that the gates of hell would never prevail against REVELATION. Better go back and reread that chapter especially the preceding verse.

            “for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

            The gates of hell could not prevail against revelation.

            The Apostles died off, the Bishops of the principle cities excommunicated each other and the Bishop of Rome assumed the role of Pope. The apostasy was complete before 300 AD. Then comes the introduction of the false concept of the trinity, worship of saints, etc.

          • James Banta

            You quoted it. And I allow you to keep your pet interpretation that revelation is the rock of which the church is built. . What I won’t do is allow you to spread revelation out into the rest of the passage.. Never in any LDS interpretation of this passage is revelation said to be what the gates of hell will not prevail against.. Read the passage without your heavy mormon bias. not in the light of mormonism but for just what it says.. On this rock (that which mormonism calls revelation) I will build my Church.. And the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.. It is clearly speaking of the Church.

            In LDS,org I found this
            “And upon this rock”—the rock of revelation—“I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18.)And how could it be otherwise? There is no other foundation upon which the Lord could build his Church and kingdom. (“Upon This Rock”. Bruce R. McConkie, General LDS church Conference 1981).

            Clearly Mr McConkie was teaching that what it built on the rock is the Church. What is built is that which can’t be prevailed against.. No one builds a rock they just are..

            So in one breath you say that the Church couldn’t be prevailed against and in the next breath you say that it did.. That makes no sense. Is it not possible that with all the evil that so called Bishops and priests git into that there could still have been small in home churches that stayed true to the faith? You look out at nonbelievers and call them the Church. I see the Church as only believers.. Are you going to tell me that there were no believers in after some total apostasy mormonism has invented.. There is no scriptural authority for any total apostasy EVER..

            You still haven’t told me any doctrine that could meet the full conditions of the Scripture for the nature of God other than the Trinity. Your statement of three Gods sure doesn’t do it.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Sorry, James, the rock upon which Jesus build His church is revelation and the gates of hell will not prevail against revelation.

            I realize that you believe in the false invention of the trinity, But the Bible AND the Book of Mormon do not support the invention of the trinity. The trinity was invented after the Bible was compiled and the Book of Mormon was being written in the western hemisphere and there was no contact with the Council of Nicea by any of the prophets writing the Book of Mormon.

            You said, “…doctrine that could meet the full conditions of the Scripture for the nature of God other than the Trinity.” Please list your doctrine from the Bible that support the false concept of the trinity.

          • James Banta

            That makes no sense at all in the context of the passage..but what else can you do. You can’t trust that Jesus had the power to hold the Church together when you teach a restoration.. You have to demand that the Church died.. I guess it doesn’t matter that Jesus also promised to be with His Church always even to the end of the world (Matt 28:20).. Since there was more than one reference to show that Jesus fully intended the Church to be alive as long as the world existed. To be sure that you are mistaken maybe it would be a good idea to see what early LDS church leaders thought of this passage.

            the kingdoms of this world made war against the kingdom of god established eighteen centuries ago and they prevailed against it and the kingdom ceased to exist the great beast that john saw made war with it and prevailed against it (Orson Pratt, JofD Vol13 page 125)

            He denied the truth of the Lord’s promise here and saw that the gates of hell prevailed against the Church and destroyed it.. He honestly saw that the Church was what was built on the rock but denied that God has the power to sustain His Church..

            Now you want to remove the Church completely from the reference all that matters in the whole passage to you is revelation.. Revelation can’t be destroyed as long as God has a message for even one man. This passage is about the Church the temple of the living God standing even before an attack from hell.. Keep your revelation as the rock on which the Church is built if you must but recognize that it is the Church that is built there on and not revelation.. How is it that revelation is built on revelation in your mind.. You need to ask your Bishop what is built on the rock. and what will stand even in hell’s onslaught.. Maybe he is a man of better thought than you.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Much writing to avoid exposing that you haven’t a clue what the false invention of the trinity, seems to be your only delaying tactic. So let me bring you around again. After all you brought it up.

            You said, “…doctrine that could meet the full conditions of the
            Scripture for the nature of God other than the Trinity.” Please list
            your doctrine from the Bible that support the false concept of the
            trinity.

          • James Banta

            Didn’t you see that in my earlier posts. I gave you references that
            establish that there is one God, Again those references are Deut 6:4,
            Isaiah 43:10-11, 44:8, and Mark 12:29.. There are others but those are
            the one I use most commonly, Then a passage I use to show that the
            Father is God is John 20:17. I show that Jesus is God in quoting John
            1:1 and that the Holy Spirit is called God in Acts 5:3-4.. Ok That shows
            two facts that are a problem to mormonism. 1. That there is ONE GOD not
            three and 2. that the LDS concept of God forces then to deny that there
            is one God or deny that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God..

            So
            by saying that there are three Gods you call God a liar. Or .saying that
            only the Father is God you deny the deity of Christ.. The LDS doctrine
            of God it just flat ANTI BIBLICAL..

            The Doctrine of the
            Trinity, (One God in three Persons) meets the requirement of there being
            one God while still allowing the Father to be God, the Son to be God,
            and the Holy Spirit to be God…After all that is the definition if the
            term TRINITY. In that the doctrine of the Trinity Deut 6:4, Isaiah
            43:10-11, 44:8, Mark 12:29, John 20:17, John 1:1, and Acts 5:3-4 are all
            supported since each Person of God are all 100% God. We move away from
            the polytheistic teaching of three Gods of mormonism and hold tightly
            to the Monotheistic doctrine that is central in the Bible.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I understand that you must use the Bible exclusively and apply the interpretations of “theologians” that didn’t consult God either before publishing their pet theories on various verses. However, you can’t deny that there other Protestants that hold to other interpretations published by by different ancient “theologians”.

            So whose “theologian” is correct? There is no agreement among Christians on important doctrine INCLUDING the nature of the Godhead. Should I throw in with your group and accept the trinity and once saved, always saved? Or go with other Christians whose opinions differ radically from you and your group?

            You quote scripture and interpret it to suit what you have accepted as true, but so have they. Some believe that “thou shall not kill” others believe that “thou shall not commit murder”. Who’s right? Big difference, as a military man it is of paramount importance to me. But are you the authority I can go to know what God intended us to follow? Do men defend their country or is it always murder?

            You say the scriptures point to there being one God and you subscribe to the committee answer of the trinity. But those guys produced something that is so vague and biblically unsupported that it ignores the whole New Testament.

            You problem is that you can’t explain the false concept of the trinity. No one has been able to explain it since it was invented, but I’m willing to listen.

            Go ahead. I’m excited to learn how Jesus can sit at the right hand of Himself.

          • James Banta

            What theologians? I own no religious writings other than my Bible and a few LDS books that explain mormon doctrine to their members.. The One that teaches me the Word in the author, The Holy Spirit! teaching His word is one of His divine duties (John 14:26). He is my teacher so I need no other.. I have talked to other Christian that say they deny the doctrines of TULIP. But when asked it they believe that all that the Father has given to Jesus will come to Him (John 6:37) they agree with the passage.. That is where the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace comes from. How about Jesus saying that those that come He will in no wise cast out. It’s in that same verse and is the basis for the doctrine of the perseverence of the saints (once saved always saved).. Even Armenians I have spoken to will admit that Jesus cast no one out after they are saved.. How about total depravity? I have told you numerous times that teaches that we have ALL sinned (Roman 23:3). Looks like that is Biblical too..

            Christian have no disagreement on the basic foundational saving doctrines of the Church. Try to find one that doesn’t believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one God.. That salvation is by God’s grave though faith in Jesus and NOT of works. All “Christian churches” that deny these Biblical truths are NOT CHRISTIAN. That is more serious than denying the miracles of Jesus and I wouldn’t attend a church that taught that.. I see that you didn’t list any theologians that are in disagreement with other theologians on the basic doctrines of the Church, I see you didn’t list any churches that disagree with other churches in those doctrines.. I bet you can’t name even one Christian church that does disagree.. EVEN CATHOLIC churches..

            Murder, Killing.. You are speaking of a different word used in a translation. The God that gave Moses the commandment “Thy shall not kill” commanded Joshua to enter the Land and kill all those living there.. was that against His own Law or did it really mean murder, and killing in a war is NOT MURDER.. I thought you were intelligent but I am starting to doubt that.. No Christian would ever teach that Exod 20:13 isn’t murder and not killing in general.. I guess even the early LDS prophets agree with that. See Blood Atonement (http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mountainmeadows/atonement.html) IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You may not own books of “theologians” but you Google with much energy.

            You said, “Try to find one [Christian] that doesn’t believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one God.”

            I have found many, but you would disqualify them as Christians for that one reason.

            As for the “killing vs murder” problem. You just made a point I was trying to make. If you do not read the scriptures for their meaning, you can get hung up on the specifics of the writer’s style and use of period jargon.

            That is why I keep harping on going to the Lord if you have questions about what the particular author is trying to convey. You can get to the point where you “are ever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth”.

            I’m still assuming you are interested in God’s truth and not just bashing.

          • James Banta

            You keep saying you have a lost of Christians that believe in three gods. I tell you that anyone who does so is not a Christian but instead is a Pagan.. So that shots your “Many Christian that believe in three Gods idea.. You are right they are disqualified to call themselves followers of Jesus who was adamant that The Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29)..

            If you would like we can drop the 1611 meanings and allow a more modern translation to be used. A translation that has allowed then Bibles meaning to be placed in modern English. English is a living language it’s meaning change and develop over time. To lock the words used up for over 400 years and expect then to mean the same thing in today’s English as they did in the days of King James is not being realistic. It isn’t the Bible that has changed it is the English language. To kill then was to commit murder. being the cause of a person death in war was not seen as killing that was just making war.. I have a wonderful copy of the New American Standard Bible if you would rather have a translation that is up to date in it meaning we could use it instead..

            Your believe that only in your feelings can God direct you is wrong.. I have said this before.. You heart will deceive you into believing you are in God’s will and you understanding of Him is true. The Bible tells us that out heart LIES to us.. It is deceitful ABOVE ALL THINGS, Even Satan doesn’t lie as much as the human heart (Jer 17:9) It is better to learn Hebrew, and Greek studying all the customs and nuances of the ancient languages but if you are old like me you haven’t that much time left in life.. So a Good translation is second best. A translation made my people that love God, love His message to the world and defend it as the peril of their life.. We are commanded by the Lord Jesus to search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39) In looking for truth within ourselves we find only the lies of our deceitful hearts.. I am intrested in truth and find in in Jesus for He is the Truth. He is the Wat, and He is the Life. If you are looking anywhere else for these things you will be lost.. I don’t tell you to stop praying I am saying make sure the answer you get are the truth by comparing them to the truth Jesus has already given to us.. He tells us that God is One Lord. If you pray and get a message that there are three Gods you are getting that from your deceitful not from the Holy Spirit.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            1. Didn’t I say you would disqualify anyone as a Christian who doesn’t believe exactly as you do! And you did!!

            2. I never said only in my feelings can God direct me. You are crediting your misconceptions to me. Maybe your heart talks to you, but I use my brains.

            3. I am wondering if you actually understand the Bible. Your quote from John is about Jesus schooling the Pharisees who do what you are doing; relying on their interpretations of scripture instead of trusting in Jesus Himself.

            4. You do, indeed, worship a strange god, one who would let one of his children who prays to him in trust and hope, be purposely deceived by the evil one. I would never consider worshiping such a creature! I am sorry you do.

          • lfhpueblo

            As far as Jesus sitting at the right hand of God or himself, he could if they were not all sitting in each assigned location at the same point in time. Time has no boundaries to God for God is eternal. Yet that’s a physics thing that is hard to explain. It’s about past, present and future. Oh well, I don’t know how to write it to explain it. God in all his forms is able to transcend all space and time, God is in the past at all times, he’s in the present at all times, he’s in the future at all times. In other words God is in all times at all times. God is omnipresent. Being omnipresent means he could be sitting next to himself. Yet, if you limit God to the limitations of a mere earthly humans understanding of the physic laws we only know of and not the all the physic laws that God created and we may not have yet discovered, well then you limit his divine power.
            Note: No where in the verse below does it say of One Accord, or One Sir Name, Or One Sinless type of life. It reads and these three are one.
            1 John 5:7-8 – For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

          • Grundune

            Where does it say God is omnipresent?

          • Ladybug91

            Then there is a false concept within your BoM because it says, “God is One.” 2 Nephi 21:31 and read this: “…And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen. OLIVER COWDERY (Introduction Preface:11) Oliver Cowdery was JS’s right hand man so you disagree with this man who was with JS when JS was translating the gold plates into your BoM? What of this: “And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. (Mormon 7:7) I could quote several more verses within your BoM that agree that God is one. Why then don’t you believe your own scriptures? Do these things not confuse you? Do you not know who the author of confusion is….I sure do.

          • Grundune

            I believe the scriptures, all of them. The difference between you and me is that I also understand them.

          • Ladybug91

            NO! It said that God revealed those things to Peter. I certainly can see that you read stuff into scriptures that aren’t there. Revelation has nothing to do with what Jesus was saying to Peter. It is all about the Lord’s church and that not even hell could prevail against. Mormons are great at twisting scripture because it must fit with their doctrines.
            Were you alive back in 300 AD? Of course not. You continue to bring up the Catholic Church, that wasn’t the only church in existence then. It just happened to be the official one and the one with all the money. Could there not have been smaller churches that had nothing to do with the Catholics and remained faithful to Christ’s teachings? There must have been since we have the Dead Sea Scrolls. If Christ said that nothing would prevail against his church, then we can take that to the bank. Do you not trust in what Christ taught or what he told his disciples or is it easier to believe in JS, a man with many problems.

          • Grundune

            It is best to trust in the Lord and confirm that what you believe is true.

          • James Banta

            Then do IT.. He tells you that He is ONE LORD and yet you keep insisting that there are three Gods.. Why do you say we should trust Him and yet you won’t? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            It is difficult for one God to sit beside Himself so He must be talking about being ONE in purpose with His Father and the Holy Ghost.

          • James Banta

            Sorry that doesn’t meet the message of the scripture.. It says that the Lord or God is one Lord. Not the Lords our Gods are three Lords.. You want to tell God what He can be instead of accepting what He tell us He is.. Is that believing Him or denying Him? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Is not asking HIM, dissing Him?

          • Ladybug91

            Yes you are!! When you deny who God says He is within his Word, the Bible then you most definitely are dissing God. Since your god is a weak god who you claim was once a man, I can understand why Mormons must do good works and work their way into heaven. What Christ did for you on the cross wasn’t good enough so you have to do it yourself. Is this how your respect God?

          • Grundune

            Neither Mormons or anyone can work their way into Heaven. I thought you claimed you were a member at one time. Why did you say that incorrect statement? Just how much do you know about the church that doesn’t come from your anti-Mormon propaganda?

          • Ladybug91

            When are you going to show me any reference to where I can find the idea of, “one in purpose?” I am STILL waiting.

          • Grundune

            I am not sure what you are trying to understand. Would it make any difference if I used “in one accord”? The whole idea is that the inspired bible authors used the figurative speech of the day and the translators translated it literally. “I in you and you in me” would be easily understood by members of the early church to mean that you and I are of one accord. Another figurative phrase used by Jesus was “if you have seen me, you’ve seen the Father”. The early church members would understand that Jesus was emphasizing the He and His Father are identical in their purpose and mission, in their love for mankind and, in fact, all of their actions would be the same in any situation. We use a similar phrase today, “if you’ve seen one you’ve seen them all”. It is only centuries later that uninspired people couldn’t understand the way it was meant by the authors. Uninspired people of today have the same problem.

            The Council of Nicea was charged with publishing an official description of Heavenly Father, Jesus Chris and the Holy Ghost that would put to rest, once and for all, the ongoing arguments resulting from people’s misunderstanding of the meaning of the original authors. Their uninspired conclusion was force on the church.

            The Lord has re-established His church on the earth and the truths of the gospel are once again had among God’s children.

          • lfhpueblo

            Note: No where in the verse below does it say of One Accord, or One Sir Name, Or One Sinless type of life. It reads and these three are one.
            1 John 5:7-8 – For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

          • Grundune

            No where does it say that they are one person.

          • lfhpueblo

            I agree, he is one Lord. Just because we are limited by our knowledge of mere earthly physics, doesn’t mean God is. We are not God and we do not know everything. We should have faith in the words of the Holy Bible, that tell us he is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If the Mormon Doctrines and rules keep changing with each prophet that should prove they worship a God that doesn’t stay the same. Their God blows in the wind, is as the shifting sands, a God who would agitate the seas and not calm them.

          • Ladybug91

            The gates of Hell my eye!! Here is another example of how Mormons twist scripture to make it fit with their doctrines. When Christ said, “the gates of Hell would not prevail, He was referring to HIS Church. Where do you get revelation out of that verse? “Upon this rock, I will build my Church.” Revelation wasn’t mentioned in that verse at all. How do you build revelation? To build revelation on revelation? What is important is what is built on that rock and it wasn’t revelation. You don’t seem to be able to grasp simple English.
            Do you know what the Church is? Who makes up the Church?

          • Grundune

            Revelation is the rock upon which the church was built. Revelation will never fail, but men can and did. The falling away was predicted.

          • James Banta

            Finally!!! You have come to some level of sense.. The Church is what Jesus builds on the Rock and even the gates of hell will not prevail against it.. Richard that means that even the full onslaught of evil can’t destroy the Church. It is built on the Rock, on Himself! Even if you continue to believe that that is incorrect and it is revelation and that is all the rock is.. Where would such revelation come from? From Him the source of revelation. I skip the middle man of revelation and go to the source Christ Jesus!

            So where was this falling away, this complete apostasy of yours predicted? You have never told us that.. Are you ashamed of your beliefs? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Is English your first language? Let’s go over this slowly, sloooowly.

            Jesus told Peter that he was given to know that Jesus was the Christ by Peter’s Father in Heaven. That is revelation. Again, that is revelation. Once more, Peter received revelation from God because Jesus told him he had.

            And Jesus goes on to tell Peter that this revelation is the rock upon which Jesus will build His church. And He adds that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against revelation.

            The Gates of Hell have not prevailed against revelation from God.

          • Grundune

            Jesus was talking about revelation from His Father in Heaven to Peter. New Testament 101.

      • James Banta

        Does the LDS church teach that those who are worthy will be Gods and that they will continue the work all Gods before them have done? That they will have eternal increase (D&C 132:19).. And what did the Father in Heaven do for his eternal offspring? He created the earth and set a plan of salvation for them to follow.. Those who are worthy for that exaltation will follow the Father in what he has done.They will form a world and be his offspring’s God as the Father in Heaven is ours, Right? Your denial of such not having “Their own world” Is not honest.. IHS jim

        • Grundune

          Nope, everything is God’s the Father. His children will always be working for Him. Best boss ever and forever.

          • James Banta

            Excuse me did I say that sitting on clouds and playing harps is our ultimate reward.. Worship, praise, and being in HIM is a huge part but what if He ask you to do something for Him no matter what He asks would be a thrill! So where is the Bible do you see what you you in glory if you could go there? Your statement needs to be taken back and use only what the Bible teaches and forget your man invented ideas of eternal life with God.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Oh sorry, I forgot you believe that God is muzzled and no longer speaks to us through Prophets. Too bad. You will have a lot of catching up to do when you finally realize that He has been sending His prophets to us for the last 183+ years on this continent. This puts you in the class of folks who disbelieved Noah when he warn them and all the other folks who persecuted God’s prophets. It also puts you at a great disadvantage when trying to understand God’s Plan of Salvation and other truths He has re-revealed in this dispensation.

          • James Banta

            Just when did you see me say that God can’t speak to his children? You are inventing things again.. All I say is that God doesn’t change.. If he pronounced His word once that word will never change.. He doesn’t make mistakes/ God speaks to me daily. .. Mostly withing His word. But there is always something there He wants me to know.. His message for that very time in my life.. Then He speaks in nature, and through other believers that he has given a word He wants me to see. That is revelation.. It is still very much alive in this world.. As for as speaking to the people through prophets The Lord though the writer to the Hebrews has told us that time has past..

            Hebrews 1:1-2
            God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
            [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

            Really why is it that you either deny or don’t know these things? After all the days of Noah were not in these last days now were they?

            God’s plan of salvation is in the redeeming works of Jesus. Because God loved the world even in our sin he entered mortality took our sin and gave us His righteousness.. You have added so much non scriptural information that the LDS plan of salvation no longer has any similarities to the real plan of God at all.. It is you that has abandon the truth of salvation for a Joseph Smith invented process. Even to start with God tells us that He created our spirits within us (Zech 12:1). Not in some heavenly realm but in our mortal bodies,, From there Smith invention really goes wild for that is where he first denies the deity of Jesus.. saying that he is out heavenly brother and not the Everlasting Father. This fairy tale was never revealed to before Smith invented it.. Or can you find any scriptural reference that speaks to a preexistence?. Bit to angelic creation bit a passage of biblical scripture that shows.preexistence. All O have ever seen an LDS show is that the hosts of heaven the sons of God shout for joy, and the fact that God knows all things even us before we we were even born.. . Do you have anything that says we preexisted as I do that we didn’t as in the Zech 12:1 passage?

          • Grundune

            Ahah, so you do claim that God doesn’t speak through prophets anymore. And why not? Because if you and your ilk admitted that God does send His prophets then you’d be out of a job. And prophets add scripture and you can’t have that because you lose control. As long as you can contain the further light and knowledge that is coming forth, you remain the arbiter of truth. When more truth is given by prophets, many people recognize it and you lose your source of income. Additional scripture means you become obsolete and that weakens your bottom line.

            It is all about power and control with you guys. But the stone has been cut out of the mountain and it is rolling over your corrupt teachings and it will fill the earth.

          • James Banta

            Why is it that you deny that a person can have direct contact to God in the Person of Jesus.. You are questioning me but God through His word. There we see that in the fays before the cross God spoke to the people by the prophets, but since on this side of the cross HE speaks to us by his Son.. If He does this what need do we have of prophets? That is what God is telling us here you want to run back to a time before grace and be subject to Law be my guest. That is foolish? Why not just believe Him.. I know that is hard for you.. You would rather believe the lies of a man.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I don’t deny that a person can have direct contact to God in the Person of Jesus. Jesus Christ is a God and can obviously answer us, but He told us to pray to His Father in Heaven so I’m assuming that Father is answering us via the Holy Ghost.

          • James Banta

            Did he accept worship from Thomas? YES, Did he accept the pray of the thief on the Cross to remember him when He comes to His Kingdom? Jesus never outlawed prayer to Himself or to the Holy Spirit.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I never said any of that. I only maintained that Jesus instructed us to pray to His Father who art in heaven so that is what we do.

            Take a deep breath, Jim

          • James Banta

            Yes we are to pray.. But for what.. I’ll tell you because you will never come up with the purpose.. To conform us into His Image (Romans 8:29).. You called Jesus A God.. I have to straighten you out again that Jesus is God and not a God.. I am breathing fine, not even a second of Asthma,, IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Still sticking with that trinity thing, eh? Well, you still haven’t explained how Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God the Father. And after you fail to do that, you can fail to explain all the other actions BETWEEN Jesus and His Father.

          • Ladybug91

            Again, another Mormon idea that we will all be sitting around in heaven playing our harps. Is this really what you think we will be doing in heaven? What difference does it make what we will be doing? What matters is whether or not you will be in heaven, the rest will take care of itself. Grun, will you be in heaven someday and why?

          • Grundune

            It is important what we will be doing in heaven. This whole earth experience is to prove and prepare us for what is to come. God has given us opportunity in this life to build a marriage and experience raising children. That bond is intended to last forever, but over the centuries it became “until death do you part” or “for as long as ye both shall live”. Marriage shouldn’t be conditional on death. Why would a loving God allow us to build a relationship so strong only to break it?

            If I couldn’t have my wife in heaven then heaven would be less than this life.

          • James Banta

            You are still being blind. The Bible tells us that the greatest gift of all is LOVE. It teaches that all other gifts will come to and end all but LOVE.(1Cor 13:8).. I will always love my wife. i will rest in the love of my Lord as I stand before His throne holding her hand.. The lusts of the flesh will be gone but the love we have for God and each other will never die,, Give up your lust for sex and see that lust and love are different things.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Interesting that you brought up lust.

            The Lord has given us desires and passions for wise and glorious purposes and He has given us bounds which we must honor. There is nothing dirty or untoward about sex if we stay within God’s bounds. After all sex is the method He has ordained for clothing His children with mortal bodies.

            BTW my wife is right, “Kissing don’t last, good cooking do”.

          • James Banta

            And is there need for either in the New City? Please point out in the scripture where procreation continues in His Kingdom.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You forget that the Lord continues to send to us His servants the prophets. Without them, I would be as ignorant as you are currently willfully ignorant.

          • James Banta

            Does he now? Where did you get that idea? It that another of your beliefs that isn’t in the Bible.. God has fully shown us the fulfillment of His plan. It is in the life, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. The Bible makes it clear in these last days has spoken to us through Jesus and not prophets. So why would he suddenly change and take that promise back and return to the pre-cross days of the Law and the prophets? Is not Jesus greater than the prophets? God’s work in providing Jesus as His way for us to gain eternal life is complete.. God has entered His rest.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Then why is there another prophet after Jesus left the earth?

          • Grundune

            I don’t know about cooking, but I sure like kissing my wife. I wonder if there will be bad breath in heaven.

          • James Banta

            You think there will be anything bad in Glory? Why would you even have to wonder? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I’ll bet you are a liberal–no sense of humor.

          • Ladybug91

            Grun: How very, very sad that you feel continuing a sexual relationship with your wife is more important then sitting at our Lord’s feet and being taught by Him and being able to fully feel His love. He promised that every tear would be wiped away and I am sooooo looking forward to that. To be free from all the pain and hurts of this world and be free, free to do whatever I want, to go wherever I want and not have to think about doctor appointments, taking medications, feeling lousy everyday and not being able to do all the things I need to, WOW, I can hardly wait to be with the Lord! Then you, you think that a life in heaven without your wife wouldn’t be any life at all? Love will still exist in heaven but the feelings we have had in this world won’t be there. There won’t be hate, malice, lust, or jealousy, none of the evil feelings that exist here on earth. Remember, this world is influenced by Satan who is the author of lies and the deceiver of men. It is Satan that puts the evil thoughts into people’s minds. It is Satan that is the cause for all the unrest and wars on this earth. Stop thinking with your Mormon ideas and look to God, He will handle the here after, you don’t need to worry. Love will be there if you have faith in God.

          • Grundune

            My goodness, Ladybug, have you been peeking in my bedroom window again?

            I can read between the lines. You can’t wait to get away from your husband.

            And unlike you, I don’t believe that marriage is based on sex. My wife, however…

          • James Banta

            Here is another example of your inability to understand.. Show me in the scripture where it says those in the kingdom sit around on clouds and play harps.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I didn’t say that was in the scriptures, I inferred that the rank and file Christians have this idea of heaven. You forget, I use to be a rank and file Christian.

          • Ladybug91

            Oh MY! If you claim to have once been a Christian, then are you not saying, that you are not one now? Did you ever go forward and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and asked Him into your heart? If you didn’t do that, then you were never a Christian, I don’t care what Church it was that you attended. The Pastor should have given an invitation at the end of his sermon each week and teach only from the Bible. And if you were attending a Christian Church at some time in your life, you never were listening to what was being taught or you wouldn’t have joined the LDS Church. Sorry Grun, you flipped your middle finger at God and went your own way and now are here trying to convince Christians that we are wrong and don’t have the truth. You must have been young when you went off on your own, that or you are gullible.

          • Grundune

            I think the Ladybug is not speaking like a lady anymore.

          • Grundune

            It’s not in the scriptures. Did you think it was? For years as a Protestant that’s the only conclusion one could reach. Here’s another, there are a lot of Protestants and maybe Catholics who think their souls are going to heaven but they won’t. Why should I be good so my soul can go? I want to go!

            Got any more stuff you want me to look up? Here’s a better idea. You look stuff up and twist it to suit your agenda and we can both chew on it for a while.

          • James Banta

            Paul told us that he had fully taught the Gospel of Christ.. FULLY, not part of it.. (Romans 15:19).. he left nothing out! You say that your teaching is not found in the Bible.? There is reason for that.. It isn’t the Gospel of Christ nut is a different gospel and it and those that teach it are accursed (Gal 1:8-9).. It doesn’t matter what you see or don’t see what people that say they are Christian are saying and doing. Mormonism by your own words is not found in the Bible.. Therefore it isn’t the Gospel of Jesus. It is a gospel different gospel a gospel of works. am not twisting anything just going in what you have posted.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I give you an A for effort, but Paul didn’t teach the FULL gospel, he said, “I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.” Had he taught the entire gospel of Christ, there would be no need for any other books in the Bible. Paul did it all.

          • James Banta

            Don’t feed me that lie.. Mormonism teaches that our heavenly father is a Spirit child of his God just like we are to him.. He didn’t stay with his God. No he went out into the cosmos and organized this world. Why would the rules suddenly change? Oh I know why. You got caught in a question you couldn’t answer and made up your own hereafter.. Nice try but it doesn’t work. Not within mormonism and not within the Bible.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Attempting to tell me about my religion again, Jim?

            You have yet “to catch” me in a question, but I like your attitude. You are a glutton for punishment.

            Let me attempt to help one with so little prerequisite knowledge. We are able to do nothing in the hereafter without God, the Father’s, priesthood. It is HIS priesthood and it will always be HIS priesthood. If we are able and worthy to progress as is His plan for us, we must be able and worthy to bear His priesthood.

            Is the light bulb on yet? If not, do several decades of study and living the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ and get back to me. But something tells me, if you do that, you won’t need to get back to me.

          • James Banta

            You denial is a LIE.. In the D&C it says they will have eternal increase. That they will be gods because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting,
            because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are
            subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all
            power, and the angels are subject unto them. (D&C 132:20). Like the mormons teach of the Father, that he was once a man and though obedience to laws and ordinances he became a god. He still has his own god right? And yet he went out into the cosmos and organized his own worlds. Looks to me that you have neglected reading your own church’s scripture for so long now you have forgotten much of it.. better study you are no longer just looking like a fool you are becoming one.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You deign to school the schoolmaster and you are not even enrolled? You need access to more than you can get off the internet. And the only way is to humble yourself, repent and ask God if you should join His church. After you’ve joined, study His church with all the information available to you that you now eschew, for 40 years.

            And then get back to me. Oh wait, you won’t need to then.

          • Ladybug91

            Grun: Maybe you should stop coming here, get off the internet and stop insulting people. No one, will ever be convinced that Mormonism is true reading all your comments. You are such a very poor example of your church. I see no love of Christ in you, just all lip service. Isaiah 29:13, “Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men…” IS this you? You follow a man, and his precepts do you not? I follow Jesus Christ, the living God. You need to spend more time reading your Bible and asking the Holy Spirit to guide you. Then and only then will you find the truth and peace.

          • Grundune

            And now here is my advice to you, Ladybug91. Read the Book of Mormon with the intent to ask God if it is true when you are finished. Then with a sincere heart, real intent and faith in Jesus Christ, ask God if it is true.

          • James Banta

            I spent 12 years of my life asking God, for such a testimony. Unlike so many LDS I would fake one it had to be real. It never came. I addressed this problem with Branch Presidents, Bishops, Stake Presidents and at last I addressed it to Elder McConkie. Each said the say thing.. Keep studying and praying.. I took their advise but widened my search to include the Bible.. As I read it (I started in the Gospel of John, I didn’t then understand why I did that) I discovered problems in mormonism right away. I saw that Jesus had always been God (John 1:1). I saw that all men are NOT the children of God. That only those that believed in Him were his children (John 1:12). I saw that baptism was never required but experiencing New and spiritual birth was (John 3:6). I learned that God loves us all and gave Jesus to us and if we would believe Him we would receive eternal life (John 3:15-16)..

            Learning that we are not the Children of God by right of birth but instead though faith in Jesus answered a lot of questions for me. I was a young father at the time who love my children more than life.. I had wondered how a Loving Father in heaven could assign his children to realms that He could never visit (the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms).. when I would take my child place on a hangman’s scaffold to protect them.. To see in God’s word that we must BECOME His children made me see that most of us are not his children and then in John 8:44 I learned that most of mankind are the children of the devil. God never cast any of his children out, but only the children of Satan.. I realized that the BofM was the invention of one of those people who were children of the devil and it was all a lie.. That mormonism was all a lie and the only true Church was to be had in being His child. He answered my prayer from a revelation I received in His word. That is by far the best kind and far more authoritative than trusting a feeling from my own decietful heart.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Are you not aware of the conditions for receiving a revelation from God?

            And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

            And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

            Worked for me and millions of others, but then we met the three conditions.

          • James Banta

            I am a member of the Lord’s Church. He Himself added me to it as I believed (Acts 2:47). If you believe that membership in His Church comes by any other way you are again anti Bible.. I don’t know who you believe is the schoolmaster here the Bible tells us that the schoolmaster is the LAW (Galatians 3:24). It points us to the cross of Jesus as we see how we fail to measure up to it’s requirements. We are all enrolled under that schoolmaster. Since it doesn’t appear that you even knew what the schoolmaster is you must still be in kindergarten. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I guess you can’t handle metaphors.

          • Grundune

            And you don’t want what Heavenly Father wants for you and what Jesus did so you could achieve it? That is the height of ingratitude!

      • lfhpueblo

        Well that is what my friend was taught in the LDS church when she was growing up. She even told me. She was taught the men could obtain Godhood and be given their own planet and their wife would be a Goddess and eternally pregnant. She told me about the families always being together. She told me the 144.000 were special Mormons. I told her they were 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of the Jews, equaling 144,000. She told me the Garden of Eden was originally in America, etc., etc., etc.. So I guess certain things in some LDS communities are told one way and then in others it’s told differently. She told me about the spirit children. She told me Satan and Jesus Christ were brothers. Which I can tell you Christian religions don’t teach any of this. Even some past leaders in your church say we don’t worship the same God. Christians believe in one God (yes in a trinity form and I explained that in a way I hoped Grundune could understand above….so if you want to read it you can, just go look for it). Well, I’ve been up all night with this. Think it is time to go to bed. I’ll never become a Mormon so there is no use talking to me. I’m sure those who have left the Mormon faith rarely ever go back into it. God The Creator Of Everyone and Everything is the Keeper Of All Time, So Time Will Tell Who Was Deceived And Who Was Not. I hope the best for those still in the Mormon faith that the truth will set them free.

  • Sally Roach

    Mormonism is a good religion, if that’s what you are looking for. There are also a lot of religious people in Christian churches. You are no better off being a religious person in a Christian church.

    • Ladybug91

      Then you don’t know what being a Christian is then or you wouldn’t have posted this sad comment. So believing in a false God and Jesus Christ is ok with you? People don’t realize that it’s NOT a church or a religion, it is one’s relationship with God that matters for in that we receive salvation. Religions are man made, and we certainly can see from Mormonism that yes, it is a man made religion.

      • Sally Roach

        You are saying the same thing as I. It is a religion, and if that is all you want, then that is all you get. I don’t have any use for religion. It gets in the way of my relationship with Jesus. :) But you have to admit, that many who call themselves Christian only have a religion as well.

        • James Banta

          Sally can you see that there would be Christian education in a Christian church and mormon education in a mormon church? Do you really think hearing the mormon message week in and week out is as good as hearing the message of life? I don’t..

          • Sally Roach

            I’m not talking about being saved, I’m talking about religion. As a religion, Mormons have it all going on. They don’t kill people that aren’t Mormons, they take care of each other, they do good works in their communities, etc. Do I think their message is correct? No. Is it better to hear a message of Truth and Life? Yes. But surely you know people who do sit in churches and hear the truth and yet, in their hearts do not believe. I’m saying these folks are not better off than a Mormon. Maybe they are worse off, actually.

    • James Banta

      Are you sure? In a Christian church you will hear the Gospel of grace, In mormonism you will here a different gospel of works. Where is it more likely such a person will find the Way the Truth and the Life? IHS jim

  • Troubleshooter

    Amen. Why is it that so many seem to be unable to understand Grace?

  • souptwins

    Pretty much everything in this article does NOT accurately depict LDS doctrines. If the premise if not true, neither are the conclusions. Please, at LEAST do enough research to accurately recount the real teachings. Whether you believe or not is up to you but you’ve got to know what you’re judging first. This isn’t it, folks.

    • godsgirl

      I love it. “This is wrong” you say. What part is wrong? You accuse Christians of being ignorant but really how transparent is the Mormon church? How easy is it to get straight answers beyond opening the door to a couple of teenagers on bikes?

      I’ve had discussions with people who like to make you feel stupid for asking questions and jump all over you over a preposition. They’re very good at twisting your words or the words of the Bible to their own benefit (not that many other “religious” people don’t ever do this either.)

      “It’s not baptism OF the dead… it’s baptism FOR the dead.” Really? Thanks for clearing that up, because neither practice is Biblical.

      • souptwins

        Do you seriously want each point explained in an online comment section? If you want to learn LDS doctrine go to mormon.org or fairlds.org. If you want to learn what people believe, ask them directly. I’d be happy to answer specific questions without trying to make you feel “stupid” and do so frequently. Go for it…..

        • James Banta

          I have picked one.. The nature of God.. Mormonism teaches that the Spirit of Jesus, all of Him except His intelligence is a creation of a god who in turn it the same kind of creation from a god.. and so on and so on.. What does the Bib;e teach?

          Psalm 90:2
          Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the
          earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

          Does mormon doctrine conform to that. In the creation of the mormon Jesus does mormonism compare to this?

          Isaiah 43:10
          Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen:
          that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me
          there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

          Wasn’t the father already God when Joseph Smith taught that God created Him in the preexistence? Mormonism in the matter of God and His nature fails to conform to God’s word. Why does anything else that mormons teach matter after seeing they they worship false gods.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            “except His intelligence”? That comes from you reading without understanding. I almost spit a gut when I read that.

          • James Banta

            If I don’t understand then explain it.. Paul didn’t walk away from people who wanted to know just telling them that they didn’t understand.. You don’t believe that the intelligence of a person is eternal? I thought all mormonism believed that bit of heresy.. So tell me that the intelligences of all people ,according to mormonism, aren’t coeternal with God.. Tell me that God Himself isn’t believed by mormonism to have been one of the eternal spiritless intelligences that fill some unknown place to men that is only known to God.. Do you deny this?

            Scriptures teach that “the glory of God is intelligence.” (D&C 93:36.) They also teach that individual “intelligences … were organized before the world was.” (Abr. 3:22.) “Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of
            truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” (D&C 93:29.) (Where Is Wisdom?, Russell M. Nelson, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, October Conference 1992).

            Elder Nelson didn’t find find it finny why do you? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            It’s the way you stated it, “Mormonism teaches that the Spirit of Jesus, all of Him except His intelligence…” You’ve got to admit that is both hilarious and shows you don’t UNDERSTAND.

            I already know I can’t get through to you. Looks like you are just going to have to pray about it.

      • Grundune

        1 Corinthians 15:29; Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

        • James Banta

          THEY!!! What to THEY do, Not why do WE do it.. It is clear that someone did it but it wasn’t the Church.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            It wasn’t? How do you come to that conclusion?

          • James Banta

            Because THEY aren’t WE..

          • Grundune

            How do you know?

      • kalamawashington

        In a discussion of the reality of the resurrection, Paul, the Apostle, says in 1 Cor. 15:29 “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”

        Showing the necessity and usefulness of baptism FOR the dead because the resurrection is a reality.

        Also, think about it for a minute. I am sure that you, and all other Christians, believe that God is a fair and just God, and “no respecter of persons”. You, as Mormons as well, believe that it is necessary to believe in God and receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior to enter into heaven. OK, how about all those billions of people who lived before the coming of Christ and the billions who have lived since his coming, but due to an accident of birth, had no chance what so ever to hear the message of the Gospel. Is it fair and just that those souls should be condemned to Hell for eternity just because they didn’t have the opportunity that you had? Remember 1 Cor. 15:29. With out those two things, by your teachings, these people must be sentenced to Hell forever. Is that the actions of a fair, just and loving God?

        • JobRon

          kalamawashington: To answer your last question, NO; but, 1 Peter 3:18-20 tells us where Christ went during the 3 days His body laid in the tomb. Every person who has, is now or will live on the earth, must have an opportunity, whether on this earth or where Christ went, to hear what Christ’s teachings are. It is NOT fair or just that those souls should be condemned to Hell, otherwise GOD would NOT be a just GOD. Baptism is an earthly ordinance and must be performed on this earth by those who have that special authority. That is why 1 Cor 15:29 was given. The Saints then knew of and practiced that ordinance so their ancestors would have the opportunity to accept or reject that ordinance. No other Church practices that saving ordinance. No other Church makes the claim that their authority was restored to the earth (Rev. 14:6). If the everlasting gospel, as John saw, was already on the earth, why would an angel be needed to bring it back to the earth? It is our testimony that that indeed did happen.

          • NoCrud

            Baptism is a public demonstration of a personal belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and of Believers in Christ. Baptism comes AFTER the belief in Jesus as personal savior and this is what eternally saves. The Lord’s Supper is also a public display of a personal belief and not an element of the faith that first saves a person from eternal damnation.

          • Grundune

            Baptism is saving ordinance to be administered by one having the authority from Christ. All will be baptized per Christ’s instructions. All will have the opportunity to repent and be washed in His blood. Death is not the barrier you perceive.

          • James Banta

            No where in the Bible is it said that baptism saves.. It is faith that does that work. Baptism is just what NoCrud said it is.. A public testimony of the work of God for the salvation of the believer. It is a good testimony. It have sin forgiven requires BLOOD (Heb 9:22). Water just hasn’t the power to remit sin..

            If you are thinking there will be a second chance for those who didn’t have one in life all I can tell you is that

            2 Cor 6:2
            For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of
            salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time;
            behold, now is the day of salvation.Today in the day of salvation.

            Again what mormonism teach as stated by you a believer in mormonism doesn’t conform to the Bible.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Baptism is one of the saving ordinances. Jesus did it and He was sinless. Are you too proud to follow Him?

            If you have a problem with this, inquire of the Lord directly.

        • James Banta

          Paul never tells us that this is a practice of the Church, It was a practice of some group that was know to him.. He said why do THEY do this, not why do we do it.. You are inventing your own justification for a unbiblical practice.. What does the church believe? We believe God’s word..

          2Cor 6:[2]
          For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of
          salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time;
          behold, now is the day of salvation.

          Not a time after death.. The time of salvation is here and now.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Really? Another group? Why would Paul be referencing an “un-biblical practice” of “another group”? You need to re-read 1 Cor. and this time attempt to understand it. Never did a man need personal revelation from God more than you do, my friend. It’s available and free.

          • James Banta

            Because it supported the doctrine of the resurrection that Paul was teaching.. He was not teaching baptism for the living or the dead in this passage..IHS jim

    • sha49tn

      No, Victoria is right. This IS what Mormons teach.

      • Grundune

        How do you know what Mormons teach? Your posts scream ignorance. And you tried so hard to establish your creds.

        • NoCrud

          “He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool — Shun him!”
          — Arabian Proverb

          You prove that you deserve to be shunned.

          • Grundune

            Okay Achmed NoCrud, how are the sand fleas today?

    • James Banta

      I have not shown anything about mormonism that isn’t true. They believe in a Being they call Jesus but he is a god that became a god not a God who is God.. That is a major issue. If they worship a false Jesus they have a false salvation.. IHS jim

  • IdahoCowgirls

    I grew up LDS but became a Christian in college. Great article! All your points Victoria are what helped save me years ago. One thing left out is Smith’s background and the Masonic similarities. It’s quite the journey when one leaves that Church. All of my dearest friends & family are devout Mormons & I pray for them all the time. The irony is that they probably think I’m the lost one. :-) God Bless.

    • Ladybug91

      Idaho: unfortunately you’re correct in how your family and friends think of you…..sad but true. As an ex-Mormon myself, my relationship with my family after I left the church was never the same. My mother was always distant and my father for awhile kept trying to preach at myself and husband every chance he got, for I know he felt he could bring us back into the fold. How much I wish he would have listened to me and my husband as well as my mom and brothers. My parents have passed on as well as my oldest brother ( I have one brother left, my only sibling). How hard it was attending their funerals knowing what the Bible says about unbelievers. My heart aches for them and all I can cling to is that they know that their daughter and sister is saved.
      I praise the Lord that He opened your eyes to His truth and that you will be standing at the right hand of God when He calls you to Himself someday.

      • ronneeh

        I just wanted to say to you Ladybug, that yes, we know that we need God’s grace through our Faith in Jesus Christ His only begotten Son who was sent to us by Our all Loving Father to die for our sins, so that we may attain eternal life with His Father. We believe in the Holy Blessed Trinity, but remember what Jesus said, “judge not less ye be judged”. Not one of us should be so presumptuous as to assume how God judges. How in the world could any of us have the capacity to know how God will judge each individual?

        • NoCrud

          You do not even know what “judge” means…

          What happens when a judge says to the court: “We just got the verdict from the jury. We will reconvene next week where I will give my judgment.”

          Judgment is when/where the “penalty” for a crime is determined. This is why we are told to not pass gossip because it could hurt someone who is innocent.

          The “judgment” for eternal damnation and salvation is already delivered in the Bible: The Saved will go to Heaven, the Lost to eternal damnation. This is the Judgment.

          Determination of Right and Wrong is a separate thing from Judgment. And you are wrong.

        • Ladybug91

          ronneeh: What a sad comment. You must not know the Bible at all. God has told us within HIS word, and that is what I go by. Jesus Christ himself said that if we believe we shall NOT PERISH but have everlasting life!
          In John 3:18 it says, “He who believes in Him is NOT JUDGED; he who does NOT believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God.” You have forgotten the whole reason we are judged and that is because of our sins!! And if a person is living in sin, not accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior then that person is living in sin!! It is God’s word and His judgment, not mine, I am just pointing the truth out to those who don’t have Christ in their heart nor believe in who he is and what he did for us with his death on the cross.

        • James Banta

          Hello brother.. Please read James 2:18.. The purpose that we do the works James calls for is to that we can show each other our faith by our works. If that wasn’t important to the building up of one another it would not be in our Lord’s word.

          Every day we make judgments. Do we take drugs, to we drink, do we surrender our moral integrity? Or do we keep our wits by avoiding drugs and alcohol, Do we honor God in our bodies by staying morally clean? Do we care for the helpless, feed the hungry and cloth the naked? No we don’t worry about a person’s personal salvation in our giving we worry about their physical need. But do we allow them to walk away without telling them of their need for God? I don’t. If they call my Lord false I smile and allow them to believe how they wish without thinking evil of them but still I know the judgment they are headed for. and try to warn them of the calamity to come. If I don’t make any judgment here do I love these people by not telling them of the provision God made for the in the person of Jesus? That isn’t love it’s indifference.. IHS jim

      • Grundune

        You are worried about “unbelievers”? Your parents not only believed, but they understood as well. Worry not for them.

        • NoCrud

          You show your ignorance of Truth but as long as you are buried in Mormon systematic doctrine, you will not change. Try reading opposing truth-revealing information and try being honest with yourself.

          Mormonism has a very questionable history and was investigated by two NYC newspapers in the past and found that they were people who dug up their yard looking for hidden treasure.

          Also, when the leader died, two sons got into a feud to see which would take over the leadership and one killed the other. The mother stayed as a leader of one splinter group. You probably don’t even know or want to admit that there are four groups of Mormons, two big groups and two small groups. And none see the Bible as a unique guide to religion or they’d not be Mormon.

          • Grundune

            O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise and they harken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

            Don’t perish, NoCrud. My library was filled with the anti-Mormon literature you quote until I couldn’t find anything new, then I discarded all of it to better use of the space.

            I don’t doubt for a minute that you have any inclination to be objective. But know this, I have received wisdom from God directly. You have only your interpretations of Holy Scripture and the opinions of men. Keep searching and perhaps someday you will come across a passage in James that will pierce your heart and you will humble yourself and ask God. If you have prepared yourself, He will fulfill His promise and then and only then will you be able to say, “I have believed, but now I KNOW that God lives and He has restored his church to the earth in our day.”

          • xiqtem

            Here we go, the satanic doctrine of personal revelation. You and JS got it down don’t you. Well enjoy that warm burning in your bosom because it is going to be much warmer where you are going if you don’t repent and believe in the Jesus of the Bible.

          • Grundune

            You think person revelation is satanic doctrine? You had better read the Bible and become enlightened, young man. For starters read James 1:5 then read about Jesus Christ telling Peter that God the Father revealed to him that Jesus was the Christ. The Bible is full of examples of the Lord revealing his will to His prophets and even to regular folk like the widow of Zarephath. All of this is personal revelation.

            You need to settle down, breathe deeply before you blow a blood vessel.

          • Ladybug91

            And the whole reason there is a Mormon Church is because of a deranged man. So don’t get on a Christians case because they follow the Bible which was written by inspired men. JS claimed to be inspired but how can a child molester and an adulterer, stealing other men’s wives. How is your so called “wisdom from God” any better then someone elses? Who is to be believed? And you’re like the pot calling the kettle black. Mormons have their interpretation of the Bible and your Articles of Faith prove that you don’t have to accept when it says, “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as FAR AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY.” Now tell all of us here, what parts of the Bible have been falsely translated?

          • Grundune

            Let me help you with some of your muddled thinking. You said, “Is your received wisdom from God any better then mine or any Christian here.”

            God is a God of truth and God’s purpose is to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life, therefore He is totally devoted to us, His children.

            God wouldn’t lie or tell something to one child that conflicts with what He tells another of his children.

            God will not allow His Gospel to be proven by one of us to another. He claims that right for Himself because He knows the hearts of His children and when we are ready for that proof. In the mean time, we are commanded to grow by faith. When we have developed faith sufficient that we do not need a proof, and we are ready, He provides the proof. Whereas before, we say, “I believe”. When He has provided that proof, we henceforth say, “I know”.

            I know that Jesus Christ restored His church, with His priesthood and the saving ordinances and it is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

            I am sorry that you have fallen away, but many are called and few are chosen… you know the rest.

        • Ladybug91

          The sad truth is, I have no control over what happens to my parents or brother now; that is up to God when they all stand in judgment. It will not be pretty with what it says in Revelations. My salvation is a given, and I have no worries at all and know without a doubt that when my eyes close for the last time, I will be with the Lord and He will welcome me with open arms. I gave up my family for Jesus Christ but who is more important? Who should I be living for, not family. “If you love father or mother more then me, you are not worthy of me.” (Matt. 10:37) This verse gave me so much comfort during a very stressful time in my life and I am forever grateful for God’s grace in my life. I pray that for you.

          • Grundune

            I see you follow that rather small segment of Christians who preach, “Once saved, always saved.”

            I would love to see your sources for that.

          • Ladybug91

            Small segment? Have you ever heard of Calvin? Do you even know what Calvinists believe? You again insult me with your arrogant comments. Yes, I am one of those who believe, once saved etc. for I believe in what is taught in the Bible and what Jesus taught us. Unfortunately for you, you don’t but rely on men; men who are fallible. Men who have placed themselves in high places and love the adoration of men. Men who pat themselves on the back and boast about the good works they’ve done. With all the billions of dollars that the LDS Church brings in daily through tithes and offerings and their farms, stocks and GA’s sitting as Boards of Directors for many companies, how is this a Church of God? Was Christ ever concerned for worldly things. NO! We are to lay up treasures in heaven.
            This life is short compared to eternity. The important question each person should ask themselves is, will I spend eternity with God and how do I do that, what is required of me to gain my salvation? Subject closed!

          • Grundune

            But madam you contradict yourself. You said, “Yes, I am one of those who believe, once saved etc [always saved]. for I believe in what is taught in the Bible and what Jesus taught us.”

          • Ladybug91

            WHAT? Please tell me how I contradicted myself? Show me that Jesus didn’t teach being saved?

          • Grundune

            He never taught that at some point we are not in danger of falling away. Once saved, always saved is a man made invention. It isn’t even universally believed among Protestants.

          • James Banta

            I just showed you where that is a false teaching.. Time to at least drop the subject the Bible has out classed your beliefs.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You have shown me no such thing, for it is not in the Bible. Care to try again?

          • James Banta

            You must not be able to read the Bible maybe the words are to big for you. Dick, Jane and Spot aren’t the main characters. The Bible teaches that salvation is a birth where we become God children. He tells us all that “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37). That is a main support to a lot of Calvinism and a promise of God that can’t be ignored.. If you come to Jesus as the Father gives you to Him, you become His and he will never throw you away.. He also says that “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” (John 10:27-29). No one includes the person involved.. Once a person comes to Jesus in authentic faith they can never be lost.. It looks like there is yet another doctrine of the Bible you deny.. I am not surprised.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            That is the most stretch interpretation of that scripture. You are trying to tell me someone that once comes to Him and then departs from Him and does all manner of vile evil will not be cast out? You make reason stare!

            Once saved, always saved is totally silly and God will not be held to your interpretations.

        • James Banta

          After any unbeliever dies worry for them stops. If they go into eternity believing in a false Jesus, or believe that they need work for the level of glory they will receive will end up getting the wages of what the Bible says are the wages for their work.. They are no different than the rest of us. They are sinners. The Bible teaches that in Romans 3:23. But they stand alone to answer for their sin. For the believer Jesus has taken their sin and given them His righteousness. The non believer is beyond helping.. His sin rests on him not on Jesus.. Ladybug still has love even for those that caused her grief over leaving mormonism. That is why God tell us that He will wipe away every tear (Rev 7:17).. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You’ve got some real weird interpretations there. Should check that one out too. I think you are even straying off the Calvinist reservation. Emperor Constantine and John Calvin. You trust these men more than your own common sense.

  • Terrye Newkirk

    Interesting, as far as it goes. The belief about becoming gods and running one’s own planet is not disclosed to the average Mormon, who has no idea what the “inner” beliefs of the group are. But they were exposed in a book by a former temple-worthy Mormon, Isaiah Bennett, published by Catholic Answers.

    A major irony in the article is the quoted Scripture cursing anyone who removes books from the Bible or changes them: That’s exactly what Martin Luther did–he even tried to remove the Epistle of James, and he did remove seven Old Testament books that were in the canon during the lifetime of Jesus. Only the Catholics and Orthodox have preserved Scripture in its fullness.

    • Grundune

      Interesting post, Terrye Newkirk. Not accurate, but still interesting.

      • James Banta

        Nit at all.. All mormonism teaches is that we will do all we have seen the Father do.. So that means polygamy, it means forming worlds, establishing spirit bodies for the billions that will call you their “Heavenly Father”. That established the eternal round that mormonism builds it’s “salvation” on.. IHS jim

        • Grundune

          Sounds like that will keep us busy for eternity.

          • James Banta

            Just how long will it take to worship God 1. Because He is God, 2. Because of His goodness, 3. Because of His grace that is responsible for person being there at all.. It will take me a very long time.. As the old Christian song lyrics proclaim “When we’ve been there ten thousand years bight shining as before,. We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise than when we first begun”.. This won’t be Sacrament meeting.. It won’t be High Council Sunday.. Jesus will be there filling our hearts, our eyes and our arms.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Is that what God wants? You to worship Him forever? You don’t think He might have something else for you to do while you are worshiping Him forever? Just worshiping Him all the time? Do we get coffee breaks? Does He really need that?

  • Reagangirl

    Victoria, what a shame that you would lose your credibility by attacking a faith that you don’t understand. You have many friends and followers who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. How sad that you would sacrifice their support to post an article that attacks their heartfelt beliefs. In your eagerness to prove a point you have used the testimonies of angry, disgruntled, disillusioned ex-Mormons to put forth this attack piece. The problem is, you’re attacking the faith and character of the most conservative religious group in the country; people who are pro-life, pro-traditional family, who love the Constitution, and who make living the Gospel of Jesus Christ a daily task, not just a Sunday obligation.

    I consider you a friend. You may want to reconsider how you support the causes of liberty and morality it it is to attack a wholesome faith, which uses the KJV Bible in conjunction with the Book of Mormon, and produces people of good character, high moral values, and strong patriotism.

    I would never attack the faith of another Christian, for doing so is to attack the precious name of Jesus Christ Himself.

    • ronneeh

      Hey, how you doing. I just posted something and scrolled down and saw you. Hope all is going well for you. Wow what a surprise.

    • Ladybug91

      We were commissioned by Jesus to go out and preach the gospel to ever person. This is what I see Victoria doing. Mormonism is a cult! It preaches a different Jesus and god. It preaches things that are contrary to what Jesus taught. If this is ok with you, great but know this, God will be the judge and if your name is not found in the Book of Life, then you will have no hope. “Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, NO MAN comes to the Father, but by HIM!” John 14:6. I didn’t see Joseph Smiths name mentioned there did you? I’m not saying that Mormons are bad people, no as I have all my relatives members of your religion. What I will say is this, you are deceived and have been lied to all your life. I suggest you get a copy of, “Mormonism, Shadow or Reality” written by Jerald and Sandra Tanner; it will open your eyes for sure and you too will be angry that what you thought was the truth, has been a lie. I challenge any Mormon to read this book. Oh, and Mormons ARE NOT Christians for you believe in a different Jesus, one who has not always been God and is the brother of Satan. How can God, who is Jesus Christ be the brother of Satan? Satan was a created being, a highly thought of angel in heaven. Are you saying that Jesus was only an angel too?

      • Grundune

        Ladybug91, you are very confused. Best you don’t attempt to portray yourself as an authority on anything especially Christ’s church.

        • Ladybug91

          No, the confusion is ALL yours dear one. I have studied Mormonism since I left it in 1980. I’ve read your Church History, have you? I’ve read Emma Smith’s writings. I’ve read books by your Church’s Apostles, especially Bruce R. McConkie. I lived your religion having been married in one of your temples. But one thing always bothered me, how would I know I had done enough good works to be certain of my exaltation? If this was paramount for it, why wouldn’t God have a limit? Why didn’t Christ teach about temple marriage if that too was paramount in gaining my exaltation? Have you ever given these things any thought at all or do you go about your life swallowing everything that is told to you? God gave you a mind, use it!!

          • Grundune

            I can imagine what you studied after you left the church. And yes I am acquainted with the breadth, depth and specifics of anti-Mormon propaganda.

            As to your question, “how would I know I had done enough good works to be certain of my exaltation?.” I am not sure where you thought you could buy your way to exaltation. It is rather simple. If you obey Christ, keep His commandments and endure to the end in righteousness, you probably don’t have much to worry about. After all He loves you and it is His work and His glory to bring to pass your immortality and eternal life. Of course, keeping His commandments entails a lot you gave up.

          • James Banta

            Just where do you get your false statements about the creeds? Have you ever read one of them? No you only regurgitate what is taught to you by LDS.INC. All the other churches are wrong, there are only two churches, our true church and the great and abominable church of the devil.. Thinking that a man invented church like mormonism. A church that denies even the nature of God as provided in his word is God’s true church is a fairy tale.. No man can lay their hands on you and give you membership in the Lord’s Church. He and he alone adds people to His Church as they are being saved (Acts 2:47)..

            Tell me when you start being totally obedient to all God’s commandments sine you believe that is the way to Him. This idea that you can be perfect in some things while you work on others is a lie.. In James 2 we are taught that whosoever keeps the WHOLE law and yet offends in one point is guilty of all (James 2:10).. You have to be 100% perfect to gain salvation by your works. Matthew 5:48 makes it a lofty goal. We are commanded to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect.. According to the scripture, Not my personal judgment (Romans 3:23) you have failed already in keeping the Law as stated in Matthew.. You have failed to be perfect as He is perfect.. So work all you wish. you will never dig out of that hole..

            Did you know that a Christian freed from the penalty of Sin by the grace of God though faith in Jesus still can’t sin all they want? It ends up we sin much more than we want.. Here I HAVE SEEN YOU BARE FALSE WITNESS. A sin you deny. And yet all the Christian here would agree with me that telling a person they left mormonism because of sexual immorality is just what that commandment is speaking to.. The difference between you and me is I confess my sin and He (Jesus) is faithful and just to forgive my sin and CLEANSE ME FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

            I am not proud of myself. I have sinned many times and in many ways against my God I confess that to my brothers and sisters and to my Lord. I am forgiven. It was all Him not me. There was nothing I could do. I was lost and dead in sin. Now I an a new creation all things have been made new.. You may keep struggling to keep His commandments and endure to the end in righteousness, I will make his righteousness my own as he gives it to me.. You are missing out. You still have time to repent and come to the Might God, the Everlasting Father, Jesus the Messiah.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Yup, recited the Apostles Creed for years. strike one

            You don’t gain salvation by your works. strike two

            I didn’t “bare false witness”. I didn’t even bear false witness. strike three

            God “gives righteousness” to you. Sounds like socialism. The rest of us have to work at being righteous. strike four

            Kill the umpire! You’re out on the third strike. Or….. along with all that righteousness that you’ve been getting, were you slipped an extra strike, Jim?

        • James Banta

          The Ladybug doesn’t claim any more authority than is given to her in the NT.. She is a king and priest unto God.. She is a child of God through faith in Jesus.. Just so you know there is mo greater authority a mortal person can possess.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I think you mean she is a queen and priestess unto God. Although she told me in an earlier post that she left the church. Is she having second thoughts and now wants her ordinance work restored?

            She is a child of God because she was first begat by Heavenly Father. We’re talking family here.

            Exactly what authority are you talking about?

          • James Banta

            Nope I didn’t mean that at all.. I meant it just as the Bible has it recorded.. You can change the word of God to meet your desires I will hold it just as it is.. When did she say that? She is my best friend and she would tell me something like that before she would ever tell a stranger.. I think you are again lying. You lie about the witness you bore about her morality. Now you lie about wanting to be LDS again.. The only way that she is a son of God is that she became one through her faith in Jesus. I guess the reference isn’t enough you have to see it here:

            John 1:12-13
            But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
            Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

            This is yet another example of your ignorance of the teaching of the Bible IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Okay, a lesson in gender description. A woman can be a queen, she can’t be a king except in Provincetown, MA and San Francisco, CA.

      • JobRon

        Ladybug91: To answer your question “How can God, who is Jesus Christ be the brother of Satan?” You have mixed up two very important terms — GOD and Jesus Christ., GOD is the FATHER, Jesus Christ is and always will be His Son. GOD, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost/Spirit, make up the Godhead. The Apostle Paul said that if we live faithful to what CHRIST taught, learning from His Father, GOD, we would have everything that His Father had (I Cor 2:9). As far as Christ and Satan being brothers: The Book of Revelation (Rev:12:3-12) talks about the War in Heaven, where Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. We had a pre-earth life with OUR Heavenly Father (GOD), yes all of us who have ever lived, are now on the earth or will be, we were there, Satan was the dragon, and at the end of that battle, Satan/Lucifer/the Devil, took 1/3 of Heavenly Father’s children with him. Your statement about members of the Church not being Christians, it is you who believe in a different Jesus. As far as the Church being a cult, you are entitled to your opinion, even if it is not correct. I submit this post not in malice but with love, please take it as such.

        • NoCrud

          Jesus said that He and the Father are One. This is also confirmed where God says “Let us make man.” US? Who was with God at that moment?

          When a person takes on Eternity, it is an absence of Time. This is what Eternity means: An absence of Time.

          Eternity is something that Jews understood and it is also shown in the make-up of the Hebrew language. Western Culture cannot grasp this easily but once it is understood, then a lot of things fall into place.

          Keep in mind that God is NOT in Time. Time is a liming thing and God cannot be limited. How can the designer and inventor of Time be limited by it? And when Jesus died, He became Eternal. Try grasping this by its meaty import.

          • JobRon

            NoCrud: You are correct in your opening sentence. They are ONE in PURPOSE. Did Christ pray to himself in the Garden of Gethsemane? Was he a ventriloquist at His baptism? Was He talking to Himself on the cross with His statement in Matthew 27:46? Who was with God when He said, “Let us make man in our image, male and female made He them? Besides GOD, Jesus Christ was along side His Father when that statement was made and Adam and Eve were placed on THIS earth. Time was made for us on this earth. After we pass from this earth, we are not subject to time as you correctly state.

          • xiqtem

            They are one being expressed in three personages that are not three different beings nor are they having sex with a mother god and creating spirit babies. God creates ex nihilo. He has no need to have sex.

          • Grundune

            Lot of writing, no sources.

          • James Banta

            NoCrud never said that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same person. He only says that there is one God. They are the same being. That doesn’t limit them to being one person.. The creeds teach the separate persons of God. You believe only the lies that mormonism tells about what the Trinity really is.. Time to go and read what the Bible teaches instead on mere men. There The father is called God. The Son is called God and the Holy Spirit is called God.. And yet God in Deut 6:4 tells Moses that the Lord his God is one Lord..Jesus confirmed this in Mark 12:29.. Were they liars? Either conform to God’s word or stop thinking of yourself as a Christian.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Wow the benefits of vagary. Can be made to conform to any argument, but unfortunately that isn’t God’s truth. The false invention of that uninspired committee, the trinity, is absurd on so many levels. Even you, Jim, can’t understand it let alone explain it.

          • James Banta

            What, is this word somehow false in it’s meaning.. Doesn’t it mean three persons in one God? isn’t that what it means? Yes so the word has nothing to do with your problem. It was only the word that was an invention.. I have told you that.. I doctrine behind that word is 100% biblical as I have shown you several times. No it doesn’t agree with mormonism on the subject but it does agree with the teaching of the Bible. The Bible does teach one God.. the Bible says that the Father is Gos, that the Son is God, and that the holy spirit is Gid and yet late in the NT one God is still the message of the number of Gods that exist.. You are just to suborn or too stupid to see it. There is nothing to explain God has taught us through His word these things are true.. That is all we have to understand.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I’m here to tell you that the emperor has no clothes on. You try to pretend to you understand that nonsense, but just repeating declarative statements is no explanation. You don’t understand it, nobody does, so take a deep breath and begin the long road to reality. Admit to yourself that you honestly don’t comprehend this invention of uninspired men. A great weight will be lifted off you shoulders because you won’t have to lie anymore that you somehow understand the uninspired, invention of 300 Catholics in 325 AD.

          • Grundune

            NoCrud, that was a trick question, “Who was with God at that moment?”

            In your theology, Jesus and God are one, so no one was with God. He was alone! Can’t fool me.

            However, your understanding of time and eternity is amazingly Mormon-like.

          • James Banta

            That is just more mormon rubbish.. I guess I have to say it again.. The doctrine of the Trinity doesn’t deny that there are three separate Persons of God.. It teaches that those three Persons are the one true God.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            There are others besides Mormons who can reason it out and conclude that you have just made an self-controdictory phrase. Beware of clear thinkers. We are not talking about interpreting the Bible here. We are talking about recognizing stupidity where it is found. I thought it was stupid before I knew anything about the church. Do you have to have a degree in stupidity to look are something that makes no sense and claim it does?

        • Ladybug91

          Job: Reference please on how were once lived a pre-earth life. Even your BOM doesn’t teach a pre-existence. This is a made up doctrine that your church has been falsely teaching its members.
          As for Satan..he was highly thought of by God as one of God’s angels but he rebelled against God claiming that he would make himself like the most high God. Do read, Isaiah 14:12-14.
          I agree with you, I don’t believe in your Jesus. You church has a man made Jesus who was not always God. You don’t accept that there is only ONE God but many. That is not taught in the Bible. Again, a man made doctrine and deity. My dear one, time to take the blinders off and do some thoughtful study and prayer. I too post this with love and concern for your eternal life. Eternity is forever, this earthly life a blink for God.

          • Grundune

            Criticizing the Lord’s church for “a man made Jesus”. That’s pure chutzpah considering that your concept of Jesus was invented by a committee of Catholic priests convened by a sun worshiper about 300 AD and forced on the church.

            Surprised? Or did you know about the Council of Nicea?

          • James Banta

            What a stupid statement,,. When has anyone here used the creeds to show that Jesus is God or to show that there is one God? The creeds have one purpose. They allow a illiterate populous to take the truth found in the Bile with them always after it is memorized. Have you ever heard of the Caticism? It is the teaching of the creeds so that it’s restatement in simple terms can always be in the mind of the believer.. Stop lying! IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Every time you reference the false concept called the trinity you are attempting to promote it as the truth. Even the authors of that monstrosity never claimed they were inspired. And yet you believe it, hook, line and sinker. You can’t even explain it, you don’t even understand it, but you promote it. Sad.

        • James Banta

          All the Father has that can be shared he shares.. There is no way to make you into me or me into you.. There is also no way to make God into you or you into God. He has also said that no other God will ever be form that He is God and there in no other. He even said he was unaware that any other God exists. He will make His children Kings and priest unto Himself. He gives them life and authority over all He has.. Does that make us creator beings, NO it makes us His children..

          Where does the Bible teach of a preexistence? IS DOESN’T In fact it is clearly stated that He created our spirits within us (Zech 12:1) Conform your beliefs to the Bible before you go about telling people you are a Christian and believe God.. IHS jim..

          • Grundune

            You said, “All the Father has THAT CAN BE SHARED he shares..” What can’t he share?

            In the Lord, all things are possible. Did you think He couldn’t? Did you think He wouldn’t? Come now, let us reason together. Tell us so more of the mind of God, Jim.

            When the foundations of this world were laid, all the sons of God shouted for joy. Knowing you, Jim, you were probably in the head when this went down. Job 38

          • James Banta

            He is God He can’t lie.. He can’t break His promises.. He must be true to himself..

            He said that He is God and there can be no other (Isaiah 43:10). Either that is so or He lied.. Are you ready to call Him a liar? I am not..

            I have shown you this before too,, That God creates our spirit within us. But again you seem more willing to believe a self appointed prophet than you are to allow your doctrine to be consistent with His word..

            Zech 12:1
            The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and FORMETH THE SPIRIT OF MAN WITHIN HIM.

            Sorry Richard but there was no using any head before I was even created.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I wouldn’t call God a liar, especially based on your interpretations of scripture.

  • ronneeh

    You don’t get to Heaven through good works, you get to Heaven through believing Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God who our Heavenly Father sent to us to die for our sins. The way to Heaven is through this belief and God’s grace. We will be judged on our good/bad works.

    • PaulNSH

      There was a man that asked Jesus what he had to do to enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus told him to keep the commandments and then that he should sell everything he had and follow him. So, you’re saying Jesus was just kidding and that all the man really had to do was just believe? Or was Jesus messing with the man because he decided he wouldn’t save him? If so, why didn’t Jesus just say so or explain it to the Apostles? Mormons believe that it is through Christ’s atonement and faith in the atonement that we are saved. Mormons believe that good works are useless without Christ’s sacrifice. But you have to have good works to build up enough faith to apply the atonement. How is that different than what other Christians believe?

      • kalamawashington

        “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Sounds to me there that Jesus is saying the at least some “works” are necessary to “enter into the kingdom of God”.

        • Grundune

          Sounds that way to me, too.

          • James Banta

            There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Proverbs 14:12).. You won’t listen to God you follow a man so that is your promise from God.. Death.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You won’t listen to anyone. At least I listen to God’s servants the prophets and get confirmation from God that what is revealed is true.

          • James Banta

            I have to see the fruits of a prophet (someone with a message). The fruits I see of a mormon with a message is polytheism, polygamy, and lies.. Grundy you have admitted you hold three beings to be your gods. Three Gods, that is polytheism.. The 132nd section of the . D&C is still in effect it has never been removed from the beliefs of the mormon church.. And lies.. Even you will have to admit that Joseph Smith Lied. He said:

            When I love the poor, I ask no favors of the rich. I can go to the
            cross–I can lay down my life; but don’t forsake me. I want the friendship
            of my brethren.–Let us teach the things of Jesus Christ. Pride goes
            before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a downfall.

            Be meek and lowly, upright and pure; render good for evil. If you
            bring on yourselves your own destruction, I will complain. It is not right
            for a man to bare down his neck to the oppressor always. Be humble and
            patient in all circumstances of life; we shall then triumph more
            gloriously. What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing
            adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.(1906 History of the Church Vol6).

            You can tell me (if you can with a straight face) that Smith was meek and lowly, upright and pure but this was 1844 and by that time he has marries 30 woman.. You could still say that he never has sex with any of them (Again if you could keep a straight face) but the Law of the land in every state Smith had lived found polygamy to be a felony. Smith had to lie here or have his words used against him in court.. But lying to protect you from being prosecuted it still a sin. Remember what the BofM says about a liar?

            2 Nephi 9:34
            Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

            It seems that Smith couldn’t remember anything he had written in the BofM.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I’ve been treated to the “destroy the prophet and you destroy mormonism” schtick and it is always disingenuous, misleading, full of half truths, out of context and of Satan.

            Simple to say I’ve spent hours successfully debunking this new tactic of yours with others and they all eventually dropped off. But not one ever admitted that they were wrong on any anti-Mormon lie they were caught in. They just went away, presumably with their tails tucked between their legs.

            The best way I’ve found to handle this never ending stream of “shocking discoveries” about the prophet Joseph Smith that the anti’s have compiled is to simply agree to disagree.

            You won’t ask the Lord in order to receive direct knowledge and wisdom from Him about this specific and very important doctrine and I can’t deny that the Lord has confirmed directly to me (and millions of other folks) that Joseph
            Smith was His servant and the prophet of the last dispensation.

            The rock of revelation has never failed and is in full operation today. I would never be able to convince you or anyone of anything, but the Holy Ghost can and does every day. But the one question you could ask God, you won’t and God will not force you. For He forces no man into heaven.

          • Ladybug91

            Grun: I am so tired of the hated filled Mormons like yourself who’s only recourse in a discussion when they find themselves in a corner, is to come back with insults and name calling. If anyone is being controlled by Satan is is not myself or James Banta. You mister can believe any damn thing you want! Just as you said, “God will force no man to heaven.” You insist on believing in a man instead of God? You insist that your “feelings” are the only correct feelings? You think that only Mormons pray to God for guidance, man you are living under a rock!! So, I suggest that if you can’t discuss this subject without resorting to insults and name calling then you go away. You’re full of yourself, full of pride and we all know that pride cometh before a fall. Grun, it is you that needs to get right with God, not myself or Mr. Banta. We know where we stand with God and we have HIS promises. I would give up my life if God so wanted it….would you?

          • Grundune

            You may claim that you would give up your life if God so wanted it, but you won’t humble yourself and ask Him if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is His restored church and do it with real intent, a sincere heart and faith in Jesus Christ. Which is more painful to you?

          • lfhpueblo

            So, I asked God (and believe me I talk to him often, he has even given me a miracle once, and spoken to me audibly once when my mother was dying), and he told me that Mormonism is not Christianity. So, you must be following a different God than I am. Your Jesus must be a different Jesus Christ than mine is.

          • Grundune

            If you are telling the truth and I have no reason to doubt you, then you are not following the God I worship. Our Heavenly Father has spoken to us, his children, through prophets since Adam and speaks to us today through His prophet. He has repeatedly revealed His Plan of Salvation to all dispensations and each dispensation has ultimately rejected it.

            You reject His modern prophets just as previous dispensations rejected the Lord’s servants sent to them. You do it at your own peril, just as they did.

          • James Banta

            Listen, I told you that I wouldn’t argue with you as to what the rock in.. Though I believe the Rock to be Jesus Himself you can believe what ever you want about it. What I will call you wrong about is that revelation is built on the Rock. Revelation built on revelation.. That simply makes you sound a bit crazy… Jesus clearly says he will build HIS CHURCH on the Rock no matter what you believe the Rock to be.. The Church not more revelation.. And because in Acts 2:47 Jesus is the only one that adds to his Church. He builds it and he protects it against all dangers. Even if the gates oh hell come against Her He will sustain His Church..

            So what does that mean for mormonism? It means that He is with His Church and will be until the end of the world (Matthew 28:20). Therefore there was no complete apostasy. The Church has survived even the Godless attacks from men that called themselves Christian and the voice of God on earth.. The old call “God wills it” used by the crusaders is evidence that they took on an authority not given them just as mormonism has done..

            To see that Smith broke the marriage laws in every state he lived in as he told the world that the LDS believe in honoring and sustaining the law proves that he was a hypocrite.. Lying about only having one wife made him a liar.. What does the BofM say about the final estate of a liar (2 Nephi 9:34).. I don’t have to believe that the BofM is the word of God to agree with some of it’s teachings.. I don’t believe that Jesus is great Lion named Aslan to see truth in the Christian novel “The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe”. Even if it is a better read.. In your mormonism you MUST believe it’s scripture.. In his life story I never once heard of Smith repenting for lying about having only one wife.. He is in trouble even if it is only for that lie.. He lied publicly, his repentance should therefore be public.. It never came.. Big Trouble!!! IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Explain how you came up with, “Revelation built on revelation..” from anything I said. I think you need to read more closely.

          • khirtjhay

            bakit naman for lord jesus

          • khirtjhay

            bakit walang nag rereply saakin kahit isa

          • Ladybug91

            Grun: “Simple to say I’ve spent hours successfully debunking this new tactic of yours with others and they all eventually dropped off. But not one ever admitted that they were wrong on any anti-Mormon lie they were caught in. They just went away, presumably with their tails tucked between their legs.” I personally want you to tell me what anti-Mormon lies has someone told you? I can keep you busy reading for quite awhile with the lies that Mormonism has told and continues to tell day after day.
            Your very founder, JS was the King of Lies! I don’t think he knew the difference between the truth and a lie. Again, and I think this is the 3rd time I’ve asked……WHY do you follow a liar! What is it about JS that has you convinced he should deserve such loyalty? Is following Jesus Christ and HIM alone a problem for you? I know our numbers are few and that saddens me but all I can do is try and tell people about my Lord and pray that those people will be open to listening.
            Having been a Mormon, I have no desire to return or be a part, for that would be denying my Lord and lying for I could never accept JS or any of your GA’s either. They live high off the hog, for as I see it, no one can be a GA if they are not well off. Why is that?

          • Grundune

            Anything told with the intention of deceiving is a lie. Look at all the negative “facts” you and your husband print and you will have your answer in spades.

          • Ladybug91

            And how do you know that confirmation is true? HOW?

          • Grundune

            God doesn’t lie. Certainly you don’t believe he does.

          • Ladybug91

            Of course I know God doesn’t lie and I can trust His word. Who I don’t trust is JS and his lies!! And again, what makes your good feelings when you ask God for assurance better then the assurance I get when I take something to God in prayer? Does that makes sense to you? How can we both be right? Someone is being lead down the primrose path. I know it isn’t me since I don’t believe in a false prophet or a false and made up god.
            You still have ignored my question as to why you follow JS. What about JS makes you want to follow him knowing his questionable back ground and life? Oh, maybe you aren’t aware of all the crimes he committed while lying to people that he saw god and god told him to restore his church. Did his life show the world that he was a true prophet of God?

          • Grundune

            I follow God’s instruction and guidance. Both come to me via ancient and modern prophets. God confirms to me truth.

          • Ladybug91

            Your god can comfirm to you all he wants but he still is a false god so anything he reveals to you is nothing but lies and nothing of truth. Who is the one who deceives?

          • suzyshopper

            The Bible also says and I quote,Galations1:9 As we said before, so say I now again,IF ANY MAN PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL UNTO TOO U THAN THAT YE HAVE RECEIVED, let him be accursed.2 Corinithians. 13-For such are false prophets, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the APOSTLES of Christ.And no marvel; for SATAN himself is transformed into an angel of light. THEREFORE it is NO GREAT THING IF HIS MINISTERS ALSO BE TRANSFORMED AS THE MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; whose end shall be according to their works.The Bible says For there shall arise FALSE CHRIST’S, and FALSE PROPHETS and shall SHOW great signs and wonders; in so much that , if it WERE possible, they shall deceive the very elect. In another verse in Mark it talks about false Christs and false PROPHETS SHALL ARISE AND SHALL SHEW SIGNS AND WONDERS, to seduce,if it were possible even the elect.IF SOME CAN BRING ANOTHER GOSPEL SO CLOSE TOO THE TRUE GOSPEL THAT THE VERY ELECT MIGHT BE DECEIVED, than how can u trust your gospel?Those verses fit the definition of a deceiver,which I believe u are!!!

          • suzyshopper

            As for your views on the trinity which I believe u mentioned is untrue, maybe u should put the Book of Mormon away and study the Bible extensively, Just because the word trinity is not used in the Bible does not mean the doctrine is not in there, as a matter of fact I can give quite a few verses too support the doctrine of the trinity if u would be interested.

          • Grundune

            Of course, I’m interested.

          • Grundune

            Well, suzyshopper, you are assuming that the church preaches an “other” gospel. Did it ever occur to you that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been changed over the centuries by design and/or mistake and you have been sucked into an other gospel. The church claims the RESTORATION of the original doctrine and principles taught by the ancient prophets and Jesus Christ himself. The original teachings are not an other gospel, but the truth.

            The bible warns of false prophets and there have been many, but it does not claim that ALL prophets will be false. Did you miss that? If you really want to know the truth, read the Book of Mormon and follow the admonition in Nephi 10:4. Also read James 1:6 & 7.

          • lfhpueblo

            My God doesn’t lie. If you say your God doesn’t lie. Than my Christian God and your God must be different God’s. My Christian faith was on this planet long before Mormonism was. My God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. For your church to say to listen to the current prophet on things even though their views could change from a previous prophets and their rules to follow differ from a previous prophets (like many wives, only one wife, etc.), then theirs is not the same yesterday, today and tomorrow teaching, it is a changing with the wind or the air out of one prophets mouth to another’s prophets mouth. If God doesn’t lie, he wouldn’t tell one prophet one thing, then another prophet another thing, if God is the same yesterday (the first time he spoke something), today (he’d speak the same thing as he did the first time), and tomorrow (he’ll always speak the same thing as he did the first time, because to do differently would make God a liar) then he doesn’t change his points of view to accommodate the prophet or man that would be speaking or writing it on his behalf.

          • Grundune

            God’s principles are eternal and they don’t change. God’s guidance to us can and does change to fit our mortal situation. He told Abraham to sacrifice his son and then told him to stop. This was a test, to prove to Abraham just how far he would go to obey God. According to you, that proves God is a liar.

            The ten commandants are God’s principles. He won’t change them. Plural marriage has been allowed at certain times and forbidden at others according to the wisdom of God for His children. Abraham was allowed to have multiple wives and he wasn’t penalized for that. We are not allowed plural marriage now.

            You are correct in that God doesn’t change his points of view to accommodate us, his children. We are to conform to God’s commandments.

          • Nancy

            You are right about 1 thing, Grund, God does NOT change, and when Jesus died on the cross, (the one you don’t believe it), He said, “It is finished”. Meaning that God is NOT going to come back and make additions to the Holy Bible.

          • Grundune

            Interesting personal opinion of what Jesus meant when He said, “It is finished”. Most people believe He was referring to His mortal suffering. I don’t know of anyone who believes He was talking about the Bible. The Bible that wouldn’t be finished for a number of years and then not compiled for many years after that.

          • suzyshopper

            Not only that in the last book of the Bible, Revelation 22:18-19, For I testify unto every man that hearth the prophecy of this book,If ANY Man shall ADD unto these things,, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if ANY MAN shall TAKE AWAY from the words of the book from this prophecy, GOD SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS PART OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, and out of the HOLY CITY, and from the things which are written in this prophecy. Seems pretty clear too me that God is saying after the Bible was finished that was it. Not only that the Bible talks about false teachers bringing another gospel so close too sounding like the true gospel , that almost the elect of God would be deceived, but he would keep them safe from, false teachings if we just follow what he says in his word, and nothing else.

          • Nancy

            Remember, “Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light”. Oh, and he is very charming so most people will hear him before they hear the one true God.

          • Grundune

            Yes, Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, but I don’t know of anyone who has been deceived by an angel of light. God will not deceive you or allow you to be deceived when you pray to him for wisdom (James 1:5). If you think God will allow you to be deceived, you do not believe in the same God I do.

            Praying to Him with a sincere heart, real intent and with faith in Jesus Christ is the only way I know to get His truth. It beats what other people tell me and clears up Bible interpretations.

          • lfhpueblo

            Now if you’re born of the water, the first birth via your mother, you don’t work being born. Chemicals in the mothers system starts the contractions. It’s the mother’s pushing that brings you forth. So you’re not really the one working in the first birth. Faith is believing, it’s not a physical action, so what work is there in that? It’s an inward thing that no one else sees, it’s something no other earthly person can know for sure when they see you. There are a lot of people doing a lot of good things that outwardly people can see, but that doesn’t mean that inside they are doing them for the right reasons. They may only be doing them to show God, “Hey look at me, see all I’m doing for you, so you owe me!” or they may be doing them to have other people look at them and say “Look what a great and kind person that is.” Granted after you have accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior and asked him to wash your sins as white as snow by the blood he shed on the cross for you, you should want to do his will. His will would be for you to do good, and be kind. But if you’re doing good to get into Heaven in the first place, then his death, burial and resurrection was in vain, his love for you, was in vain.

          • Grundune

            We should be doing Christ’s bidding out of love for Him.

        • James Banta

          What works? We are told that even our faith isn’t our own but is the gift of God (Eph 2:8-9).. The Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul teaches is that if our salvation was by grace then it is not of works and if it is by works it is not of grace. (Romans 11:6). It’s one or the other NOT both.. IHS jim

          • JobRon

            James: Read the book of James and you will see that indeed works are necessary – Faith without works is dead. We show our FAITH by our WORKS. That is almost all of that Apostle’s message — Faith and Works.

          • suzyshopper

            No the Bible says that faith is a gift from God, that works will follow, not the other way around.Our faith does not come by works. why is it so hard for anyone too understand God shows grace ,gives us the faith and the faith produces good works, so what’s the confusion. Even the good works that we do we can’t take credit for, and I quote( Philippians 3:13 For it is God which WORKETH in you both too WILL and to DO of HIS GOOD PLEASURE, that verse is saying that even the works we do are from him, so how can we think works come before faith?

          • suzyshopper

            You are right James,.

        • lfhpueblo

          Being born of water is the first birth, it is when the mother’s womb waters break that a human baby can be born physically. To be born of the Spirit is to ask Jesus Christ into your heart. I know a lot of people will say the water part is Baptism, but it is not. Baptism is an outward action you do once you’ve accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior to let the world know you have faith that what Jesus Christ did on the Cross was enough to cover your sins and that you’ve accepted that and asked him into your life to be your Lord and Savior. People who have not had the chance to be Baptized or who have chosen not to, but have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior are still saved and will still go to Heaven when they die. It’s not works that get you there it is faith. So that is one of the ways Christianity and Mormonism differ. That’s why most Christians do not believe in Baptism of babies, as they have not had a chance to make a faith based decision. I do know Catholics baptize babies.

      • NoCrud

        And at the death of Christ, we entered the Age of Grace (Grace means Free: Freedom of payment and is where we get words like Gratis and Gracias when a Gift is bestowed). Before, when Jesus was still alive on earth, it was the Age of the Law so what Jesus said AT THAT TIME was correct. Later, it did not as far as the Law was concerned for gaining the Kingdom of Heaven although their actions under the Law was proof of their belief in a payment for eternal salvation. Keep in mind that God has always had one eternal salvation but the proof of it came under the Law. As theologians say, we are now under a new economy: The Age of Grace.

      • James Banta

        And who is there that has ever lived except for Jesus that has kept the commandments? So without His imputed righteousness (Romans 4:23-24) given to those who believe Him. There is no salvation.. IHS jim

      • sha49tn

        Jesus wanted the young man to be WILLING to give up all he had in order to follow Him. I know wealthy people that are some of the best Christians around. They are always helping somebody out, usually without that person knowing. Christians are to do good works yes, (by their fruits ye shall know them,) but good works do NOT obtain salvation.

      • suzyshopper

        That is not true, I will will quote one clear verse for u but there are many others but I don’t have the time or space, hopefully this verse will suffice(For by Grace are ye saved thru FAITH, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is a GIFT OF GOD lest any man should boast.God clearly says grace, faith than works and even that faith u have is not from u, ppl get tangled in the works doctrine, thinking that somehow it will save them. When the Bible talks about works it says that a believer will produce good woks because of his faith. As for the man who asked Jesus, what he had too do too enter the kingdom of heaven, u must compare scripture with scripture. There are some scriptures that are taken out of context to sound like works somehow had too do with a persons salvation , but too get the real meaning of a passage, u need too read further, all the verses pertaining to the verse that u are quoting.God also says, that any works that we do are like filthy rags in his sight, not only that even the good that we do , we can’t take credit for, because God says he works thru us to do his good pleasure.

    • Grundune

      You might want to take advantage of Christ’s atonement and repent of your sins, too.

      • NoCrud

        Repent is not “feeling sorry for past sins” as the English language has changed it to be. A good dictionary shows the “bib.” meaning (in italics) at the time of the King James “translation” and it meant a change of mind or direction. Our feelings have nothing whatsoever to do with eternal salvation. Our looking to Jesus as the payment of [each person's] sins is what God wants/expects — nothing more — or you put the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross to an open shame. See John 6:40 and compare with John 9:41 and Matthew 7:21 with emphasis on “the will of the Father/God.” You won’t find those verses in the Book of Mormon, by the way.

        • Grundune

          “feeling sorry for past sins” is a part of the repentance process. Forsaking them and changing your direction to follow Christ is also part of the repentance process. You seem to have only a partial grasp of gospel principles, but that’s okay, keep plugging away.

          • xiqtem

            Repentance is granted to the regenerate sinner by God along with faith to believe. When one repents they see their sin for how horrible a crime it is against God and hate their sin. They love God and want to obey Him out of a new nature that is part of regeneration. You are the one with a perverted gospel Grundune. The word gospel means good message. Mormons in the D&C don’t use it that way though. Gospel is doing works, obeying rules of the cult, and checking boxes.

          • Grundune

            xiqtem, you are all over the map. Do you proof read what you write or just regurgitate what flashes through your mind?

          • James Banta

            Stop complaining and just comment, or not, on the meat of the post.. Is there a difference in the Gospel of the Bible, a Gospel of salvation by the God’s grace though Faith in Jesus, and the gospel of mormonism that starts with faith and is then filled with things we must do? There most certainly is.. The Gospel of mormonism is a gospel of works and faith.. That isn’t the Biblical Gospel. The Holy Spirit through Paul warned us that:

            Gal 1:8-9
            But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
            As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

            xiqtem was clear to me.. Maybe you need to understand the Bible a bit better.. You don’t seem to have a good knowledge of it.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Why do you insist on answering your own questions? And why are you so sure you gospel is not an “other gospel”? You still haven’t explained a very basic false doctrine of yours, the trinity. That alone makes your gospel “an other gospel”. So who’s accursed now?

          • James Banta

            Just how many times do you need to hear it.. I have explained it Biblically and that is all the EXPLANATION I WILL GIVE.. No other is needed, no other is required.. IHS jim

          • lfhpueblo

            So Jesus said, when you see me you see my Father. That is pretty clear to me that they are one in the same. When my step-son says when you see me you see my Father, well that’s not true. He and his Father look nothing alike. They are not the same age (were not both there from the same time, not born on the same month, day, year), they do not act alike, think alike, etc.. There are different laws of physics here. How can I explain how so you’ll understand…..how would a person be able to see or be in the Past, the Present, and the Future all at the same time. I’ll try to explain in an analogy. Say you were high up in the air looking down on a Parade, if you were high enough up in the air, you’d be able to look down on that parade and see all points of time in it. You’d be able to see the parade going at the end of its’ route, as well as the parade going on at its’ midpoint in the route, and the parade still coming forward from its’ beginning point in the route. How do you not know that God the Father is not God at one point in his eternal time, that Jesus Christ is not another point in the time of God, and that the Holy Spirit of God is not another point in the time of God? They would all co-exist, but they could all be present in the forms or non-forms needed. See I don’t limit the Power of My God to my human intellect, I don’t limit My God to just my mere understanding of the laws of Physics. I mean water vapor can become rain, rain can become snow or sleet, it can become ice, it can melt and become vapor again. I won’t limit my God, you can go ahead and limit yours.

          • Grundune

            We have a similar expression, “when you’ve seen one, you’ve seen them all”.

            Think about it for a while. Just because you have trouble understanding how they talked back then, doesn’t mean you have to throw out 99% of the Bible to accommodate several passages that confused uninspired men who invented the false concept of the trinity. You are really wrapped around the axle trying to defend that concept that was invented well after the Bible was compiled.

          • Ladybug91

            Such a shame that you don’t know anything about the word regeneration and what it means to a Christians.

          • James Banta

            Forsake them? Yeah right.. You are human and therefore a weak leaky vessel. Remember Jesus told us that even to think evil thoughts was sin..That is where I fail most. That will be where most of your sin most likely lives.. I doubt you are the king that runs around in anger killing people or tossing women to the ground in lust.. I would tjink of you what you are so quick to think of others..

            The repenting process is just what the Bible Teaches, just what I have posted. Confess to Him your sin.. Then when you do He forgives you and cleanses you completely.. I doubt even a great man like you can remember all his sins against God.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I am not without sin, but I avail myself of the repenting process and strive to not repeat the same sin over and over. After all there are so many and so little time.

          • Ladybug91

            Grun: unfortunately, you continue to keep repeating the same sin, that of bearing false witness! Care to try. So many of your comments are no making sense.

          • Grundune

            What sin is it when you falsely accuse someone of bearing false witness?

          • Ladybug91

            You are a grown man, seem to be a knowledgeable man and I have to explain to you what sin you committed? You have broken the 9th Commandment that of bearing false witness against your neighbor. This commandment must be one God especially wanted included with the others. In a previous post to you I explained also what bearing false witness means. It was such an important commandment that in the days of Christ if one was found to have LIED about something someone had done, they received the same punishment.
            When you posted here for everyone to see that you felt I had been ex’d from your church for immorality, that was a lie! It doesn’t matter that it was something your felt, you still said it and that is enough. You think it’s ok to go about spreading rumors just because you have a feeling? Get over your feelings for as you can see, they have gotten you in trouble. You slander my name here and I take offense by that. Why don’t you do some research on this subject, huh? Your education is really lacking so why would I want to take anything you say seriously. Your words don’t hold water for me. You are nothing more then a gossip, a breaker of God’s laws and a deceiver. So looks like from this latest post, that you don’t really read what I write. Start reading and paying attention or go away!!

          • Grundune

            It wasn’t a lie, I did get that feeling. Whether you were or not is your business. You stated that you left the church and I observed that you were now contending against it. The contending against the church after leaving it is a hallmark of those that have bone to pick and getting excommunicated is a big sore spot. If you didn’t get excommunicated that’s a whole lot better than just falling away. Unfortunately the end result for either is a tragedy.

          • James Banta

            Since you have never left the LDS church yet not the service of Jesus you have no idea the emotion that builds up inside one who has. I can tell you that it is akin to someone who has smoked for years and then quits. He want everyone to know the freedom of not being tied to tobacco any longer. At first the joy of being free from the straight jacket of the cult is overwhelming. You want to tell everyone. Then the anger comes. The anger of being lied to. This is when a person lashes out against those lies that kept them bound for so long. Here they learn how little they know. That is when they begin to study. Consuming ever word they can find that points to what mormonism really is, LIES..Finally anger changes to love and concern for those still lost in the maze that is mormonism. Then they start to read the Bible. The words of truth almost pop out from each page.. Do we need a man to be the Church’s prophet we find (Heb 1:1-2)? Are Grace and works required for salvation (Romans 11:6). Is there one God and not three (Deut 6:4, Isaiah 43:10, 44:8, Mark 12:29). We learn that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and NOT BY WORKS (Eph 2:8-9) and that the Father sent Jesus into the world to save all who would just believe in Him (John 3:16). Then they bring this happy news these glad tiding to their people, the LDS. and are rejected as a liar, an apostate, and an anti mormon.. They aren’t anti at all but now feel only love, but their concern is resented and from many. They feel hatred coming at them because of their message of joy. Then all they have learned about mormons and how mormons often reject the Bible and they pour their knowledge out on them. And what to they get from the mormons a statement of testimony. Of Joseph Smith and a church being true. Surprised by their lack of understanding they respond that churches prophets or any of the spiritual gift don’t matter what is important is Jesus, the Mighty God, the everlasting Father.. . Now hatred for them is full in the hearts of the LDS and they laugh at the truth that God has given concerning His nature… But do we stop, NO! We continue to share the truth of God they have found. Found in His word as well as the understanding that the LDS will not understand until God calls them into His light.. Still We move forward with the command of Jesus to go into the whole world and teach all peoples of Him and His love, We continue to strive against the deeply seeded lies that the LDS have believed, always pointing to Jesus. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You are the best assumption maker in the world. Wouldn’t it be better to stop assuming things and know the actual truth? You continue to skate pass the obvious that the only way you are going to know the truth is to receive it from God directly as James says.

            There is no other way.

            There are thousands who interpret the Bible differently from the way you and your comrades interpret it. Is your solution to take a poll and the majority wins? Or maybe you should ask God and receive His wisdom as I have done.

          • lfhpueblo

            I’m not Mormon and I’ve asked, and once again My God told me Mormonism is not Christianity. So once again you serve a different God, a different God that is not the same yesterday, today and always. I’ll serve the God that is the same yesterday, today and always, because he can’t confuse you and trip you up.

          • Grundune

            The god that you prayed to doesn’t know that what you call “Mormonism” is actually the restored gospel Jesus Christ. The name of Christ’s church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

          • Ladybug91

            Your response still doesn’t forgive you of breaking one of God’s 10 Commandments does it? Your feelings were WRONG!! I need an apology or this discussion is over.
            As for reading your BoM, I have and find no need to pray about it. There is no reason to go to God and ask Him if what I read was true for it is NOT true. JS lied to all those who have swallowed his made up story of having a vision and being told by an angel about the gold plates. Why so many errors in the BoM? Why would God make mistakes if He truly was helping JS translate the gold plates? Why hasn’t anyone ever found evidence of Reformed Egyptian? JS’s life has never shown he was a man of God. Did any of the well known prophets of the Bible ever commit any crime? JS ordered the Expositor Newspaper office to be destroyed because he didn’t like what was being printed about him. Was that the sign of a man of God? Did Jesus not command us to love our neighbors as ourselves? Do good to those who persecute us? Maybe JS should have spent more time in the Bible instead of chasing after other men’s wives.
            And if you again accuse me falsely saying I am contending against god’s church, sorry, you are bearing false witness again. I do not contend against God’s Church, for I am a member of it. I speak out against a church who teaches false doctrines that do not line up with Biblical teachings.
            Don’t think I don’t understand your side of things, I was once a Mormon too. I understand how it consumes your life. I understand that you feel the need to defend it and that going against it would mean being rejected by church members, family members, friends and possibly even co-workers. You see Grun: Momonism is more then a religion to you, it is a culture; just as Islam is to Muslims. You can’t help it. What I would like you to do is read your Bible and pray to God that His Holy Spirit will show you it’s truths; that you will be lead to accept my God and Jesus Christ so that you too can be a member of God’s family and not perish. That is my hope and prayer for you.

          • Grundune

            No one can forgive themselves. If you want an apology for SUSPECTING that you were excommunicated from the church for immorality, state to me that you were not. If I SUSPECT you are telling the truth, I will issue a formal apology that should provide great comfort and solace.

          • Ladybug91

            I don’t owe you anything! And again, you continue with saying insulting things to me, a womanm showing your total disrespect for the female sex. No wonder your wife doesn’t want to give you what you want from her in bed, she finds you disgusting for sure! You are nobody! You are just some poor slob who has chosen to believe in falsehoods and has swallowed these falsehoods, hook line and sinker. Do not worry for me and where I will be for the eternities…..but be concerned for yourself since you won’t see the errors of Mormonism and are a cultist, following a man who was no better then Jim Jones, or the Heaven’s Gate leader or Warren Jeffs or David Koresh; all these men said they too had revelation from God and we all know what happened to them. Joseph Smith got what he deserved for the Bible says in Deut. 18:20-22, “But the prophet who shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. If thou say in thine heart, how shall we know which the Lord has not spoken, when a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing that the Lord has not spoken, but the prophet had spoken it presumptously; thou shall not be afraid of him.” JS failed this test for a prophet when he proclaimed that a temple would be built in Far West in that very generation. That spot is still empty today (D&C Sec. 84 verse 4) Keep drinking the poisoned Kool-Aid. I mentioned in a previous post that if the insults continued, that our discussion would be over, and so it has come to an end. There is nothing more I can tell you. I don’t need to pray to a false god and pretend that this false god would give me the correct answers about Mormonism. I’ve been down that road 30 years ago. Do you not think I prayed with everything that was in me when I discovered the lies of Mormonism in my studies? How bad I wanted God to show me I was wrong in the things I discovered through those studies. Are you so ignorant that you never read all my posts and saw what I have told you that I did a comparison of Mormonism with Biblical Christianity and found that Mormonism did not follow the teachings in the Bible? God was the one who lead me OUT of Mormonism and again do you think it was so simple for me to do? My whole family is Mormon. My ancestors came across the plains to the Salt Lake Valley giving up everything for the church because they thought it was true. My great, great grandfather’s name is written on a memorial monument on our State Capitol’s grounds; he was a member of the Mormon Battalion and the first member of the LDS Church to pay a tithe in gold. You’re thinking, how could I leave Mormonism with such a grand ancestry. I can only thank God for He chose me to find the falsehoods of Mormonism and to learn of Him and accept Him and Him alone. At that moment, I was made His child and a member of His Church and family. Good bye. If you want to think you have won, you know, I don’t give a damn! Think what you want, pat yourself on the back and puff yourself up with pride and self righteousness which is a sin, something you can’t seem to stop committing.

          • Grundune

            A simple declaration would have been enough. Although that was probable cathartic enough.

          • lfhpueblo

            “God The Creator of Everyone Everywhere In All Times, I humbly come to you Father of All in Prayer. I ask that you place heavily the Holy Spirit of God upon the heart, soul, mind of the person using Grundune as their responding name here. I ask that the Holy Spirit shows them that the Holy Bible, your divinely inspired words are the same yesterday, today and always. Show them that your truths do not change. Let them come before it is too late to your full truth and not the words of some men who want power over others. Let them seek out all the past history of the Mormon Church both outside and inside of their church, so they may see that the words of those prophets and their rules change from prophet to prophet. With the changes they’ll see that the True God that never changes is not the True God of these men. That these men unfortunately have been deceived, and having been deceived unknowingly of course as Satan is the Father of All Liars, they continue to deceive. Break the deception and let Grundune’s heart see the truth, down to the true essence of the soul let the truth be known, in the mind let the truth be known, and then I pray God that Grundune is set free from the chains of bondage to those parts of a religion that may sound pleasing to ones ears, the chains that make one feel they have the truth of everything. Send Grundune a vision or a dream to set them free if it be thy will True One And Only God Of All. Speak to them audibly if it be thy will True One And Only God Of All. I pray others here concerned for Grundune will also pray in agreement this prayer True One And Only God Of All. For there is strength in numbers in Your Name the True One And Only God Of All. This prayer is on behalf of Grundune True One And Only God Of All, may your will and their free will be done. AMEN.”

          • Grundune

            I don’t know what you’ve been reading or who’s been whispering in your ear about the Lord’s church, but you’ve been snookered, big time.

          • Ladybug91

            Oh, forgot to say, Hi Richard!! How’s it going?? Glad to hear that your boat engine is fixed. Enjoy your vacation. Catch up with you soon.

          • James Banta

            Show us in the Bible a process for repentance.. If following a set process is a requirement for forgiveness God would make sure we know what it is.. It would be right there to be seen and followed and yet I have never seen anything like that in the Bible I have to go to LDS.org to find such a thing.. There is no process. All one must go is ask for God to forgive them and He has promised to do so.. You mix in to much RELIGION into a faith that should be as simple and being a child of a loving father.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            God has restored a lot of this knowledge you keep asking about, but you refuse to “inquire of the Lord”. There is further light and knowledge available, but if you remain stubborn and refuse to avail yourself of it, you are hurting yourself and all who love you.

            The weather has broken and the marina called to tell me my boat engine has been repaired. So my vacation resumes. Keep plugging away. I may check in later.

          • James Banta

            I sail.. Before the accident I sailed weekly on my Lancer 29′.. I have never thought much of stink potters… Those who use ores (Motors) are not on good terms with the wind.. IHS jim.

          • Grundune

            My brother gave it to me. I thought he liked me. It has the motor that bankrupted Evinrude, the Fitch injection system. It took me forever to find a marina that would even work on it.

            Ya, I have sail boat too, but it’s only a day sailer and I haven’t had it in the water for two years. My other brother gave that to me. I’m sure the sails are funky. They’ve been stored in a duffel bags under our summer house for two years. If I were smart I’d put my sail boat on my mooring in the harbor (without the sails) and forget about the stink pot. Have to have a boat on the mooring for at least 30 days a year or I lose it and I won’t live long enough to go through the waiting list. The last time I checked it the next guy to get a mooring has been on the list for 30 years.

            My other brother has a 37′ two mast something or other. He’s nuts and I was nuts to agree to be part of his crew on the return trip from Virgina to Mass. Luckily his pony engine blew up just past New York City on the first leg and he limped to a marina and then back home.

          • lfhpueblo

            Condemnation or guilt is not of God, it is of Satan. Satan is the one that tries to make us feel guilty, tries to make us feel unworthy of Jesus Christ’s love that he showed to us by the ultimate sacrifice, taking on our sin, not his, and dying for it, to cover it with his blood. Then Free Will given by God, allows us to choose whether we’ll accept that Grace and ask for Jesus Christ to forgive us of our sins by his shed blood, by what he already did for us. So Christians believe in Free Will and non-force, just as you say Mormons do. Yet, we don’t believe you have to do good works first. We feel you’ll want to try to do good works after you’re saved, but we don’t believe those good works get you to Heaven or make you a God with your own planet.

          • Grundune

            Mormons don’t believe you have to do good works first. First you must have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

      • ronneeh

        Most definitely, assuming that was a given. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. We should never assume.

      • James Banta

        I have my “Come to Jesus” meetings with Him daily.. I am far from pure.. Jesus has a lot to show me in my life. So much that I think once a day ismt often enough.. Still all I can to is confess that I am guilty. He being My Savior is faith and just to forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).. How about you. Are you in agreement with God that you sin and sin often?

        • Grundune

          We emphasize the repenting process and improving ourselves over the constant the self flagellation of emphasizing that we are always sinning. I never thought that was very productive as a Protestant. But many Protestants seem to enjoy going around claiming they are sinners.

  • Topazinator

    For being a “cult” the Mormons sure have come a long way and done a lot of good. We evidently need more cults.

    • Ladybug91

      That was pure nonsense! Just because something looks good doesn’t make it so. What if I were to bake a beautiful cake but while making it, I decide to put in one drop of untreated sewage, just one drop. Even though the cake is beautiful, it is not good! It is ruined by filthy sewage but it fools all those who eat it. This is the whole issue with Mormonism. They look good, most are good people but, their doctrines are full of filthy sewage not even realizing it. They can’t be accepted in God’s kingdom because they have failed to believe in the one true God and Jesus Christ his Son. I don’t care that they call themselves, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints for they could call themselves anything but it still remains that they believe in false doctrines and a made up God. God was never a man, nor will anyone ever become a god. This is one of the reasons Satan was cast out of heaven; he was prideful and stated the he would make himself like the most High God!! Isaiah 14:12-14. Do take time to read it, for it would open your eyes to the true God and his truths.
      Your reasoning is so sad, we sure need more cults like the Charles Manson followers or the Jim Jones group who all were forced to drink poison Kool-Aid, and let’s not forget the Heavens Gate group and Warren Jeffs, who abused young girls and all kinds of vile crimes, just as Joseph Smith. Cults are great, we sure need more of them in this nation.

      • Topazinator

        Take a deep breath. . . .

        • James Banta

          Take a deep breath and drink the koolaid?

          • Grundune

            Say, Jim, you are really getting into this. Way to go.

  • Ladybug91

    This article is SPOT ON! I was once a Mormon, born and raised. I live in the Salt Lake Valley and come from pioneers who traveled to this valley. My great, grandfather was a polygamist with my grand father being the son of the second wife. I was married in one of their temples and it was then that I had my eyes opened that Mormonism had some serious problems. I left the religion I was raised in, back in 1980 along with my husband.
    What is sad about Mormonism is how they portray themselves to be such good people, (which many are) but they preach false doctrines leading people away from Jesus. They must always do good works for Christ’s dying on the cross wasn’t enough. They put little stock in the cross and believe that all of Christ’s suffering was done in the Garden of Gethsemane.
    There is only one way to heaven and that is through one’s belief, faith and trust in Jesus Christ, there is no other way.

    • Grundune

      Ladybug91, if you really were once a Mormon, you sure don’t know much about it. The church teaches that Christ’s atonement is infinite. No one can add or subtract from something that is infinite, so you must have missed that lesson. So who told you that Christ’s dying was not enough?

      Works are important because everyone is rewarded for their works, but that is only because you have first accepted Jesus Christ as your savior and are now working for Him.

      His atonement consisted of three acts. Taking upon Himself all the sins that have been or will be committed in the garden, giving up His life on the cross and rising from the dead. You must have missed that lesson, too.

      If you were actually sealed for eternity to your husband, you have broken that covenant and since “neither is the man without the woman or the woman without the man in Christ” you will not have claim on him or he on you as husband and wife through the eternities. And that’s a long time.

      • Ladybug91

        Guess you’ve not been reading anything pertaining to good works within your church. That is the whole problem with your religion. You get told so many contrary things. Don’t tell me that I wasn’t once a Mormon for that is your cop out because you got upset over the truths I mentioned in my post.
        The LDS Church teaches that there are things every member must do in order to enter heaven. First there is baptism, second the laying on of hands by mere men, giving you the permission to be members of the LDS Church, third, doing temple work and finally, enduring to the end in righteousness. These things are what I was taught and do you not agree that this is what you were taught also??
        To say that Christ did all his suffering in the garden is a slap to his face!! He humbled himself there, praying earnestly to his father that if there be any other way but the cross, let it be. Yes, he was torn at that moment and I do believe it was his flesh that caused him to pray as he did. Christ KNEW that the ONLY way to give salvation to all mankind was to go to the cross and shed his precious blood. We can not do that on our own. Bruce R. McConkie in his book, “Mormon Doctrine” on pg. 735 said, “On man’s part, the process of gaining salvation is one of cleansing HIMSELF from sin, so as to stand clean before God at the last day.” No one can be saved in their sins. (Alma 11:37) Repentance, baptism and enduring in righteousness to the end comprise the course where by the sins are remitted. This is your teaching no MINE! My Jesus was capable of remitting ALL sin by and through his shed blood. Why don’t your churches have a cross on them? Is it because of the fact that the cross upsets you, or you’re ashamed of the cross. Think about it?
        Who did Christ die for? Those who are pure, or the ungodly? Romans 5:6 says, “For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ DIED for the ungodly.” I do think you need to get your Bible, dust it off and start reading the book of John.
        Another problem with Mormonism, so much taught in your BOM and very little from the Bible. “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you then that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As I said before, so I say now again, if ANY man preach any other gospel unto you, then that ye have received, LET HIM BE ACCURSED!” (Galatians 1:8-9) Joseph Smith was such a man!! He taught doctrines that are false and lead people away from Jesus Christ. Your Jesus is not mine! Mine is God, has always been God. He was not a created being, He has always stood at the right hand of God the Father. He is NOT the brother of Satan, for He created Satan! Col. 1:16-17 reads, “For by him were all things created, that are in HEAVEN, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; ALL things were CREATED by him, and for him. And HE is before ALL things, and by him ALL things consist!” When it says, ALL that takes in EVERYTHING, unless you have a different definition but there can’t be any other definition.
        My prayer for you and all the members of my family is that you all might be saved. I don’t mean resurrection as you do when you talk about salvation. I mean, saved; being present with God in His kingdom.
        One last thing. When your day comes and you’re standing before God and He asks one question of you, “Why should I allow you into my kingdom?” What will be your reply?

        • Grundune

          Ladybug91, you may have been a Mormon at one time, but your understanding of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is extremely limited and you have much confusion about the Lord’s church.

          If you are discussing doctrines and principles and you insert something that isn’t true or omit something that materially changes the meaning, what you are saying becomes wrong or misleading. This applies to everything you said.

          Why did you say “mere men”? Didn’t you learn that these “mere men” are holders of Christ”s priesthood and have the authority to official in this ordinance? What you left out is they are giving you the Gift of the Holy Ghost. They are not “giving you permission to be members of the LDS Church”, they are confirming YOUR decision to be baptized and join Christ’s church.

          Who told you that Mormons believe that Christ did all His suffering in the garden of Gethsemane? It is true He bled from every pore so we can assume that there was true agony associated with taking upon himself all the sins of the world. This is something that you or I couldn’t do for a number of reasons, we didn’t agree to do it in premortal life, we have not lived sinless lives and we have mortal fathers. However, hanging on the cross was no picnic. Try it some time. Have a friend drive large rusty nails through your hands, wrists and feet, then write back to me and tell me you didn’t suffer! Are you starting to see how your knowledge is just off enough to skew your understanding and how silly you sound to Mormons.

          You can’t convince people by quoting out of context. One cannot repent and have their sins remitted in the ABSENCE of the atonement of Jesus Christ, and WE must REPENT to avail ourselves of His atonement. To say otherwise is to claim that heaven will be filled with unrepentant people who have had their sins washed away.

          Another problem you display is a lack of understanding of the Godhead. We believe in God the Father, in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. These are three distinct beings who are one in purpose, (Do you remember what that purpose is?) Heavenly Father created us as his offspring and we are passing through tests to become like He is. That is His desire for us. Jesus Christ told us to be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. Jesus atoned for our sins so that we could be washed clean in His blood and have a chance at perfection.

          So to understand Col 1:16-17 you have to know that it was Heavenly Father who created everything including Lucifer and Jesus Christ. Lucifer rebelled and became Satan. That was his choice. You and I and everyone else who has or will come to earth sided with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ against Lucifer and his followers during the war in heaven. We are still part of God’s plan of salvation, whereas Lucifer who became Satan and his followers are damned. You should have paid better attention when you attended Sunday school.

          I find it amusing that you assume the Mormons are teaching “another” gospel and that you now have a gospel that is not “another” gospel.

          You must have missed a lot of church because the Bible is taught just as much as the Book of Mormon. They are companions and both witness of Jesus Christ. Truth is truth wherever it is found.

          • Ladybug91

            Excuse me!! God did not create Jesus! Jesus has ALWAYS existed and has ALWAYS been GOD! Do go back and re-read Col. 1:16-17 because you truly don’t understand what it says……for you are reading it through Mormon eyes and I feel sorry for you since I was once as you. It is so hard to see things in any other way because your doctrines have been pounded into your head since you were knee high to a grasshopper. One in purpose is a Mormons way of trying to explain the Trinity. The Bible is full of speaking of ONE GOD, not one god in purpose, where does it say that? John 1:1 go read that for it says, “In the beginning was the Word ( who was the Word….Christ) and the Word was with God and the Word WAS GOD!” That is what it says, sorry! Isaiah also says, “You are my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am HE; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I am, the Lord; and besides me there is NO Savior.” (Isaiah 43:10-11) This is what makes Mormonism a non-Christian cult! This is why you believe in a different Jesus then Christians. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit have been in existence forever! They were not created but they created ALL THINGS! In 11 Nephi 31:21 it reads. ….. “And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the ONLY true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, which is ONE GOD, without end. AMEN”. Are you going to argue the words of your own BOM, the book all Mormons hold in high esteem due to your founder having claimed he translated it from gold plates given to him by an angel? This is the problem that Mormons have and can’t accept. You have turned the infinite into the finite and that is blaspheming!

            Mere men? YES! For there is NO Priesthood! There is but one Priest, my Priest, the High Priest who is Jesus Christ. If you knew anything about the Priests in OT and NT times, there was only one High Priest and what was his job? To go into the Holy of Holies once a year to make sacrifice for himself and the people. He sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat which was symbolic of the blood Jesus was to shed on the cross.

            Are you saying to me also that the atonement took place in the Garden? Do read the account of the Garden. It says, “And being in agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat, WAS AT IT WERE, great drops of blood.” (Luke 22:44) Sure, Jesus was experiencing agony at that time because he knew what was to come the next day. He knew what the Romans would do to him, the scourging, being spit upon, the crown of thorns, and then the ultimate being forced to carry his own means of death, the cross and being nailed to it. I make no light of the suffering Jesus did on that cross and it is heart breaking to think about because he loved me enough to hang there and die for every sin I have committed and will commit. He did the same for you and every person who has ever lived and will live. We should be praising him and giving thanks.

          • Grundune

            If Heavenly Father didn’t begat Jesus Christ then give us your opinion of how Jesus Christ became the Son of God. And while you are at it, explain why Jesus told us to pray to OUR Father who art in heaven. And just how many times does Jesus refer to His Father as someone else and how many times does He refer to His Father as Himself. Also explain the points brought up by PaulNSH. I think you have your work cut out for you and you won’t get any help from your anti-Mormon propaganda, be it in print or two legged.

          • Ladybug91

            Again Grun, you do err not knowing your scriptures. Jesus is called the Son of God because of the flesh because of being born into a mortal body. In the beginning, he was with the Father, read John 1:1. When it says, “the word” it means Jesus Christ proving that he existed with God the Father. Hehas always been,just as God the Father has always been. If you knew your scriptures you would also know that Jesus was begotten by the Holy Ghost (Spirit) according to Matt. 1:20, it reads, “An angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, Joseph thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary, they wife; for that which is conceived in her is of THE HOLY GHOST.” There was no sex involved as Mormons believe, how absurd.
            What does Mormonism teach? Brigham Young taught that when the virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.” JoD (Journal of Discourses vol. 1 pg. 50) This can also be found in the Deseret News, June 18, 1873. You see, every sermon that BY gave in the Salt Lake Tabernacle twice a year during General Conference was written down. BY would read over what had been transcribed to assure there were no errors before it was submitted to the newspaper (a little history for you). All those sermons were then compiled along with other General Authorities sermons, to what is the Journal of Discourses today. These sermons were sent to the members in England during that time as well.
            We pray to the Father because Jesus taught his disciples that that was the correct way to pray. And again this is due to the mortal birth of Jesus Christ, nothing more. Jesus called the Father, God in John 20:17, “Touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father; go and tell my brethren, and say to them I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” Jesus was called, God in John 1:1. The Holy Spirit is called, God in Acts 5:3-4.
            Grun, I don’t need anyone’s help to explain anything to you. You tell me I am intelligent and yet say this? I will not go and try and find some comment by another poster when there are 3 pages to look through. I will also call you out for in all your posts you have YET to back any of them up with references…….why? I have shared with you many references, even using several from your own Standard Works, makes me wonder if you truly know much of the Bible or anything else.

          • Grundune

            So what was Jesus before He was born in the flesh. Was He still the Son of God before that?

            So you are saying the Holy Ghost begat Jesus and not Father? If so how does that square with your new belief (the trinity) that they are all one being anyway?

            So according to your theology, God begat Himself and prayed to Himself and told everyone to pray to Himself and cried out to Himself on the cross and ascended to Himself and now sits on His right hand. There are a few other problems with the committee developed concept of the trinity, like God speaking from the heavens and at the same time descending like a dove just as He was coming out of the waters of baptism. I could go on, but why bother. You don’t understand the false concept of the trinity because NO ONE DOES.

            Did God lead you to read about the trinity in the Bible? No wait, that was only developed after the Bible was compiled, so He couldn’t have.

            I think the problem has been resolved. You don’t understand what you believe no matter what church you are in. Oh wait, I forgot, you don’t even believe that Christ started a church. That doesn’t square with Calvinism either. Maybe you should hit the reset button and start over again. And wait for God’s direct confirmation to you that what you are about to do is actually in keeping with His will.

      • xiqtem

        Your created christ can not atone for anything because he didn’t exist. Mormonisms goal is not the same as Christianity. Mormonisms goal is for the male adherent to become and exalted man through a plurality of marriages and to become a god so he can populate his new solar system with spirit babies. It is the total egomaniacal, misogynistic, sex addict religion. It is just like Islam, but for white people. http://youtu.be/w7bukaRhbI0
        You are very misinformed about your own faith or you are a liar. I am presuming that you are a liar practicing your apologetics chops or perhaps a troll?

        • Grundune

          Have you noticed that you make up something about Mormons and then attack what you made up. You could do this by yourself. You don’t anyone telling you the truth.

      • Ladybug91

        There is no marriage in heaven.
        But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.” Matt. 22:29-30 The Mormon idea that all married couples will stay together in the here after has no truth in it according to Christ himself. Mormon men are sex crazed and looking forward to continuing a life in heaven and having sexual relations with their wives even after death and of course becoming a god and bearing spirit children for eternity. NONSENSE, UTTER NONSENSE! I recall at the age of 14 discussing this subject with my father. I laughed then and I still laugh today with that most ridiculous idea that can’t even be proven through scripture, no, for this is the idea of a deranged man, not God! Do you think for one moment that I fear anything that your doctrines claim? What is important is knowing if one will be with God for eternity, not whether one will still have their spouse. Your priorities are all mixed up.

        • Grundune

          That is correct, they neither marry nor are given in marriage in the resurrection. So you’d better do it now or you could be out of luck.

      • James Banta

        We won’t teach mormonism. You must see that our desire to put out truth instead of teaching the lies of the mythical mormon gospel is somehow a lack of knowledge.. All it means is we know what is wrong and teach the Biblical answers to your errors.. IHS jim

        • Grundune

          Before you “put out truth” you need to determine that what you plan to put out IS THE TRUTH. Confirm everything with God as James says. Like abstinence, it works every time it’s tried.

          • James Banta

            STOP making up your own scripture.. James doesn’t say “Does any of you lack knowledge” He says “does anyone you lack wisdom” . Knowledge must be gained in study. Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit.. Wisdom is the correct application of knowledge. The most educated person in the world can still be a fool if he doesn’t apply wisdom to his knowledge.. Even a poorly educated person can be wise if they apply wisdom to their limited knowledge..

            There is no wisdom in teaching lies.. Agreeing with you I suggest you stop teaching as doctrine only that which is taught by men as you ignore what God has taught is in His world ie He is one God, not three.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            You must have knowledge before you can apply it wisely. Read where knowledge comes from Moroni 10:5. Then ask God for the wisdom to apply your knowledge you just from Him. James 1:5.

          • James Banta

            Those are the words of Joseph Smith.. You may have to believe them to keep the myth going I don’t. I see a commandment given through Paul yo the Pastor Timothy to Study to show himself approved unto God a workman rightly dividing the word of truth.. Is that just a commandment to Him or do we gain knowledge from study? UNLESS YOU HEAR THE ACTUAL VOICE OF God speaking to you the only way He can do so in through His word.. That still requires study to gain knowledge. Yes he can lead you to what he wants you to know within His word but to gain the knowledge He wants you to have means dusting off your Bible and actually reading it.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            I’m not sure what point you were trying to make, but I still believe James and I have put his admonition to the test many times with wonderful results.

          • James Banta

            My point is that your answers have a Huge chance of being a product of your own heart, Because many of them are not biblical that chance is only 100%.. You teach eternal marriage Jesus teaches us that all who are worthy of that kingdom are single like the angels in heaven.. Should I believe Jesus or you on that principle? I chose Jesus.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. –Jesus

  • wendyintexas

    Thank you, Victoria, for your courage and honesty. I have studied the beginnings of the Mormon church and you are absolutely correct. I am so sad to see the deception that has been perpetrated upon such good people all these years, and the fact that Glenn Beck is a part of it has always concerned me, because I believe he has such a passion for TRUTH. I have prayed for several years that God would open his eyes to that truth, and I continue to pray that the deception will become clear. Please don’t become discouraged by negative comments—you are doing what so many are afraid to do—speak truth, back it up with Scripture, and stand firm. Thank you for being the voice for so many…

    • Grundune

      Glenn Beck does have a passion for truth. It is you, wendyintexas, who lack it. You have been deceived by cunning and craftiness of men. Study honest sources. Read the Bible and then read the Book of Mormon and then follow James 1:5. That is how I know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is what it claims to be, the restored church of Jesus Christ.

      • NoCrud

        You have been brainwashed and don’t even know it.

        • Grundune

          Please. Brainwashing is so Korean War. Drycleaning is now the preferred term.

          • xiqtem

            oooh so witty, are we on empty troll, I mean grundune… you probably aren’t even a mormon.

          • Grundune

            Fishing for information, xiqtem?

      • wendyintexas

        Sadly, you are deceived, and I have studied honest sources, because the Bible is the true and inerrant Word of God. I am sorry you cannot see truth….”But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. James 1:5″ TRUTH.

        • Grundune

          Love that scripture. Thank you, wendyintexas. After studying the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, I realized that there was only one person I could trust to tell me whether of not it was true. Heavenly Father via the Holy Ghost revealed to me, personally, that His Son had indeed restored His church to the earth in these latter days. The promise of James was fulfill to me and I have grown closer to my Savior, Jesus Christ, every day since.

          • Ladybug91

            Grun: have you ever thought that your burning in the bosom came from Satan? Would he not want to keep you away from the true God? Yes, he would and he is doing that everyday, you’re one example.

          • Grundune

            What kind of god do you worship, Ladybug?

            The God I worship would not give me a stone if I asked for bread nor would He allow Satan to answer for Him.

            I am sorry you have such a low opinion of your Heavenly Father.

          • Ladybug91

            What makes you think I have a low opinion of God the Father? This is your poor way of going in circles. Subject closed.

          • Grundune

            If I’d said what you said, I’d want to close the subject, too.

            You expressed your low opinion of God the Father by suggesting that He would allow Satan to answer for Him. If that is how you think, no wonder you went astray.

          • Ladybug91

            Point of interest. In the temple ceremony for over a hundred years, when Adam calls on God and does that 3 times, who appeared? It was Lucifer (Satan). So you’re telling me that someone like you who calls on the name of God, Satan can answer? This is certainly shown by your temple ceremony which I know how been changed; course that’s another subject all together.
            You say that my prayers are answered by Satan even though I pray to the Father through Jesus Christ. This is a very weak argument Grun and inconsistent.

          • Grundune

            “Okay Satan you can take this one, it’s Grundune seeking wisdom, and because he thinks the Godhead consists of three separate and distinct beings, have a little fun with him.”

            I don’t think so, bug91.

          • James Banta

            Instead of trusting your own knowledge and the emotions found in your own heart why not turn to what God teaches on the subject in your own Bible.. There you will find real answers not just wishful thinking you wanted to have confirmed.. If you want confirmation of your own beliefs your own heart in NOT a good source.. Go and see what God has already said.. His word hasn’t changed, what was true is still true. Prayer is always good. You then need to allow God to answer you and His answers most times are there waiting for you in His word.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Good, you are starting to come around. You mentioned going to God in prayer for confirmation of what you study in the scriptures. Very good.

          • James Banta

            That is a falsehood.. I have already shown that in the LDS Temple there was/is a teaching that Adam prayed and was answered by Satan not God.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            And you haven’t read my response that exposes your ignorance. Read it. I’m rather proud of it. I was gentle.

          • James Banta

            And of course you prayed about it instead of turning to what God had already had to say on the differing doctrines of mormonism.. You prayed and talked yourself into a positive testimony.. A feeling that is based in emotion not on the word of God.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            God has said something on the “differing doctrines” of Mormonism? So you do believe in continuing revelation! Who was the prophet? You?

          • James Banta

            Yes I did.. God has told us that a man should be the husband of one wife. He told us we are ALL sinners. He told us that if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive our sin. He told us that we are saved by His grace through faith in Jesus. None of these things mormonism hold to be eternal truth. Feeling that would counter any of God’s truth come from the heart of a man.

            Jer 17:9
            The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

            Your heart is lying to you telling you that there are three Gods. telling you that you must be obedient to all God’s commandments to gain Eternal life.

            I have told you before that Jesus is my prophet. He is the only prophet that speaks to the whole Church in these last days. I though we had that settled.. Can He give a word to me that I need at a place of trouble I may find myself? Yes.. Is that continuing revelation I think so and therefore I don’t deny it. What I deny is that anything He has to tell me will never disagree with anything he has already given as doctrine.. You seem to expect that.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Now you can’t quote the Bible correctly. A Bishop should be the husband of one wife. Stop telling me what Mormons believe, you haven’t gotten it right yet so you probably didn’t get it when you were one.

            No doubt that Jesus comforts you, He loves you perfectly, but He doesn’t send you revelations like He does through His prophets. You don’t even get confirmation of His truths because you refuse to ask Him with real intent (you will act on what He reveals to you, like accepting the restored Gospel of Jesus Chrsit and repairing your life), with a sincere heart (you are more interested in making points against His church) and faith in Jesus Christ (you do have that, I hope).

            You better make sure you understand what He has given as doctrine before you start disagreeing with what He is waiting to tell you.

  • ForrestByers

    1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

    2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

    3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

    4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

    6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

    7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

    8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

    9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

    10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

    11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

    12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

    13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

    Joseph Smith.

    For further insight and appreciation, of the Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints, you are invited to review, http://www.Mormon.org.

    In the words of an old Mormon hymn, “God be with you to we meet again.”

    • James Banta

      yes that is your AofF the Creed of mormonism. BTW that makes you creedal!!! IHS jim

      • ForrestByers

        One of the first things we’re taught as children are the Articles of Faith — 13 statements that summarize our fundamental beliefs.

        Two years before he died, the Prophet Joseph Smith wrote them in a letter to a newspaper editor, John Wentworth, who had asked for information about the Church.

        Ever since the Articles of Faith were written, they’ve inspired and directed us in the basic principles of our gospel. They enhance our understanding of certain doctrines and help us commit to living them. They invite further thought. And they’re a good tool for explaining our beliefs to people unfamiliar with them.

        • James Banta

          Please help we with the First AofF..

          We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost…

          Does this mean that 1, Only the Father is the only God but you believe in Jesus and the Holy Spirit too? 2, That there is One God that is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as the BofM teaches:

          2 Nephi 31:21
          …And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

          Or is it what Smith taught later

          History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473
          I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it!

          Or is it Biblical truth

          Deut 6:4
          Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

          This First article could be seen as describing any of these ideas.. Which one does it really point to? IHS jim

          • ForrestByers

            God the Father

            God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22).

            Additional Information

            The Father of Our Spirits

            One of life’s great questions is “Who am I?” A beloved Primary song helps even little children answer this question. We sing, “I am a child of God, and he has sent me here.” The knowledge that we are children of God provides strength, comfort, and hope.

            We are all literally children of God, spiritually begotten in the premortal life. As His children, we can be assured that we have divine, eternal potential and that He will help us in our sincere efforts to reach that potential.

            The Supreme Creator

            Heavenly Father is the Supreme Creator. Through Jesus Christ, He created heaven and earth and all things in them (see Moses 2:1). Alma said, “All things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator” (Alma 30:44).

            The Author of the Plan of Salvation

            Our Father in Heaven wants us to dwell with Him eternally. His work and glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). In order to make this possible, He prepared the plan of salvation. He sent His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to loose the bands of death and atone for the sins of the world: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). This sacrifice is the greatest expression of our Father’s love for us.

            Coming to Know God the Father

            As children of God, we have a special relationship with Him, setting us apart from all His other creations. We should seek to know our Father in Heaven. He loves us, and He has given us the precious opportunity to draw near to Him as we pray. Our prayers, offered in humility and sincerity, are heard and answered.

            We can also come to know our Father by learning about His Beloved Son and applying the gospel in our lives. The Savior taught His disciples: “If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. . . . He that hath seen me hath seen the Father” (John 14:7, 9).

            We draw near to God the Father as we study the scriptures and the words of latter-day prophets and as we give service. When we follow God’s will and live as He would have us live, we become more like Him and His Son. We prepare ourselves to return to live in Their presence.

            See also Creation; Godhead; Plan of Salvation

            —See True to the Faith (2004), 74-76

            Scripture References

            John 14:6, 21-24; 17:3 Mosiah 4:9 Doctrine and Covenants 132:22-24 Articles of Faith 1:1

            Church Magazine Articles

            “Knowing God”

            “The Grandeur of God”

            In word and in deed Jesus was trying to reveal and make personal to us the true nature of His Father, our Father in Heaven.

            “The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost”

            “The Pattern of Our Parentage”

            “A Basis for Faith in the Living God”

            View More

            Additional Study Materials

            “God, Godhead”Guide to the Scriptures

            “God the Father”Encyclopedia of Mormonism

            “Father in Heaven”Guide to the Scriptures

            “God”Bible Dictionary, 681-82

            “Our Father in Heaven”Gospel Principles, Chapter 1

  • Nolan Ashman

    The fate or future of Mormonism is not in your hands bloggers, An old Mormon saying; “people are down on what they’re not up on”, applies here. Your choice. You can continue to presume to know what you’re talking about, to profess to know more than you actually know, or you can find out what Mormonism is. We are transparent, open, and willing to talk.

    • Ladybug91

      Oh really? Then why doesn’t your Church ever come out and tell the world what each Apostle makes each year, or your Prophet? NO! Your Church is NOT transparent and will never answer a question truthfully. When I asked my own father who was a stanch member of your church if he would be going to heaven, he answered me saying, “I won’t know that until I am dead.” Do you know for sure if you will go to heaven after death?
      Why is the temple ceremony secret, and please don’t insult me with, “it’s sacred.” I have been through your temple when I was married, I know what goes on in them. How is this being transparent. Oh, and don’t tell me the temple is a place of worship for it keeps a majority of its members out because they were not found, “WORTHY”. What was Solomon’s Temple used for in Biblical times?

      • Grundune

        Ladybug91, why should we care about your opinions? You’ve already demonstrated you have very little understanding regarding your former church.

        • Ladybug91

          Then why do you keep asking me questions? What is wrong is that you’ve been out smarted by a former member of your church and that is eating you alive. I know more about Mormonism then you will ever know because you are afraid to look and find out what I did. God lead me to the truth……I praise his name daily for it. It is you that has been deceived and it is Satan who is the deceiver. JS was deceived or a good liar, I believe he was both. You want to continue to believe in such a man, that is your freedom to do so but only one’s belief in the true God and Jesus Christ will give anyone salvation. There isn’t enough good works you could ever do to earn your way into heaven. The written word of God, The Bible is nothing to you, just words with no meaning but I will leave you with this, Isaiah 64:6, “For we are all as an unclean thing, and all our RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” In Biblical times, filthy rags were those that were used by women during their monthly cycle. So by your good works and presenting them to God, Isaiah has called them, filthy rags. Those good works are an insult to God and unacceptable. He requires so little of us. He asks only that we believe in his Son and accept the free gift he offers us. A free gift of eternal life for our belief and faith in Christ, nothing more. I will keep you in my prayers that someday you will see the falsehoods in Mormonism and be saved.

          • Grundune

            To paraphrase you, how do you know God lead you to this truth. Perhaps it was Satan.

          • Ladybug91

            Here we go again in circles. I have answered this a couple of times, you evidently don’t read what I post or my posts go over your head.
            God lead me to His truth by my reading His word, The Bible and studying your Standard Works and other books written by your past GA’s and the LDS Church History. And of course, much prayer. I again have told you this before but you insist on making me repeat myself which is getting ridiculous. You have tried to explain how you feel that your church is true but we both can’t be right can we? Since I believe in the true and living God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and you believe in a man made god and a created Christ whom I’ve found through my studies, then I accept what God lead me to understand. The founder of my faith is Jesus Christ. The founder of your faith was JS an adulterer, child molester, money digging fraud, liar, and convicted con man. Does this sound like someone you can trust and follow? I know I can trust Christ and all he taught for even Pilot told the Jews, “I can find no fault in this man.” We know Christ lived a sinless life, the only one who could. Do some soul searching and study for I know you will find the truth if you want it bad enough. Grun, thanks for your efforts and again I will say, you are in my prayers that you might be saved. God bless and keep you.

          • Grundune

            You remind me of the man who thought he could discern God’s will through reading the scriptures. He open the Bible and read “…and Judas hanged himself.” He thought that was tragic so he open it to another page and read “…go ye and do likewise.”

          • James Banta

            This is why the context is so important can you agree to that? and the context shows that there is one God and His salvation come by His grace though faith and NOT BY WORKS.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            We agree that salvation doesn’t come by works, but by keeping the commandments of God and through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

            However I am still interested in how this one God of yours sits at His own right hand.

          • James Banta

            If we had relied on the |Still small voice ” to,lead us that could be said. but no, like the Bereans we search the scriptures to determine what is true.. The Holy Spirit through the writer of Acts tell us that in so doing the Bereans were more noble than those who didn’t do so.. I am calling you to be noble.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            The still small voice is the Light of Christ that strives with man always.

          • James Banta

            |And yet that still small voice if it tells you that God the Father was once a mortal man and is now a resurrected man with flesh and bone, You should have the knowledge and wisdom to reject it as form some other source than God.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            That still small voice doesn’t get into heavy doctrine, that is done by the Holy Ghost and only to the Lord’s servants, the prophets, both modern and ancient.

          • James Banta

            God doesn’t conform to the whole trith ofn the Bib;e.. That only comes from God.. Satan may say, You won’t die (Total lie) but you will be like God knowing good from evil (1/2 truth).. God tells us the 100% truth.. No hand shaking involved.. Just the wisdom He said we can ask for..The wisdom to be able to perceive truth in opposition to a lie.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            God doesn’t conform to the whole…what?

        • James Banta

          And we should care about yours when they are so obviously nonbiblical? IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Your opinion and very shaky at that.

  • makrov

    I would have wanted a Mormon in the White House than the muslim we have there now, even though I am a christian.

    • Grundune

      Mormons are christian, unless you believe a people who covenant to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, always remember Him and keep His commandments are somehow not. What is your definition of a christian?

      • makrov

        I come from a Mormon family. I know the difference of the teachings of Mormons and what the Bible says. Mormons are good people but DO not follow the teachings of scripture according to Christ. I accepted Christ and follow the scriptures not the writings of Smith who got mad at a church and wanted it his way.

        • Grundune

          You say you know the difference of the teachings of Mormons and what the Bible says and yet you come out with “Smith who got mad at a church and wanted it his way”. How do expect anyone to believe what you say when you can’t get right what a 14 year old boy did. “mad at a church”???? He was planning to join a church when he approached the Lord in prayer and asked which church he should join. Makrov, you have no cred.

          • makrov

            Sorry I KNOW the history. Maybe you need to understand that leader, then you can write intellectually..

          • Grundune

            That’s the point, you say you know the history, but you got it wrong. How can we trust you, now?

          • makrov

            The point is your mind is closed to the truth so don’t write back unless you have something intelligent to say.

          • Grundune

            I have something intelligent to say.

          • James Banta

            Tell me Richard why would Smith want to join a Methodist Sunday School class if he had been told not to join any church? And yet that is just what he did.

            In June 1828 Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of Mormonism, joined the Methodist Church [probationary class] in Harmony, Pennsylvania. (The
            Improvement Era, April 1970, p.12) Looks like Roger was right and you are the one who is wrong.. IHS jim

      • xiqtem

        If mormons are Christian then recant of all of the teachings of the cult and just go by the Bible and be called a Christian or maybe all Christians should start saying they are mormons while believing a completely different teaching that what the false-prophets of your cult prescribe for the adherents?

        • Grundune

          Say what????

          • James Banta

            Because you are stupid let me help you understand what was said, I’ll type slow..

            If mormons are Christian then they need to give up all their uniquely mormon doctrines and just go by what the Bible teaches.. If not maybe all Christians should call themselves mormons after the mormons fully comply with the Bible. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Why don’t all the followers of Emperor Constantine, the sun worshiper, give up their discipleship to him and reject the false concept he purchased back in 325 AD to stop dissension that he felt was politically dangerous for the empire.

            Why not stick to the Bible and not a politician.

      • James Banta

        Mormons believe is a different person all together than the Jesus revealed in the Bible.. The Bible teaches that He is the Mighty God the everlasting Father. You deny that.. making Him a demigod instead of God who created all thing even the spirits of men that he formed within men (Zech 12:1) IHS jim

        • Grundune

          Demigod? Not me. That one’s on you, Jim.

          • James Banta

            Do you know what the word means? Seems as if you don’t.

            Demigod:
            a mythological being who is partly divine and partly human; an inferior deity.

            It is you not I that sees Jesus as subordinate to the Father in all things.. I see that only in His flesh.. In His divinity he is an equal with the Father,

            Phil 2:6
            Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God
            But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
            And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

            Jesus is the Father equal but made Himself the form of a servant.. If you don’t believe the Bible just be honest and call it a lie.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Every time you assume to know what I believe, you strike out. You are the one who brought up “demigod”. Not me. I believe that Jesus Christ is a God. I have no information or any reason to believe that He is in any way inferior to His Father and have never been taught that. You pulled that out of thin air.

            Got a few problems with what you actually said, however. Jesus Christ has an immortal resurrected body. He is both spirit and flesh/bone. Not 100% flesh as you theorized. Christ received His flesh and bone body from Mary, laid it down and took it up again.

            I am proud of you, however. All Protestants of my acquaintance believe that Jesus Christ is a spirit. None, however, can point to a passage that says where He laid it down a second time.

          • James Banta

            He is either God or He is a liar. There is no middle ground in that.. I keep having to remind you that No God (even if just for this world) was formed before God and no God would be formed after Him.. According to your doctrine Jesus became a God after the Father was already God..

            Your Jesus, the being you call a God, can NOT be a God at all and have the Bible be true.. But that won’t stop mormonism. After all they have a mere man that can change the word of God to what he wants it to be with the wave of his pen.. People will believe Him over what God has said because he says he is a prophet and knows that even though Jesus promised that His word would never die, it was so changed that it no longer reflected any message as it was originally given.. Only Smith could rescue us from being totally lost..

            GARBAGE!!

            I will not believe any man over God no matter what authority he assigns to himself.. God’s promises are trust worthy, Any man that teaches anything other than what God has preserved for us in the Bible is a thief and a liar.. He is trying to steal the sheep of Christ’s sheep pen climbing in another way other than going though the door of the pen which is Jesus Himself..

            If you would go back and read what I said I said that Jesus is 100% man, and 100% God.. Fully man and yet fully God.. That is no theory The Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul tells us that we are “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13). As He is our Great God he often refereed to Himself as the Son of Man (Matt 8:20. 9:6 and 10:23 to name a few references) Fully God, fully man!

            Richard you still live a protected life.. You know no one with any Biblical back ground at all. I know that He was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. I personally don’t believe that all the Protestants of your acquaintance don’t believe that Jesus is a resurrected Person.. God in the flesh.. The body of Jesus was NOT of Mary.. Do you know anything about human Biology? All the sex determinating DNA Mary could have provided would have made Jesus Female. Mary only had an XX chromosome, a male is always XY. The Baby Jesus was no more related by blood to Mary than to Joseph Mary’s husband. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man.. IHS jim

          • Grundune

            Isaiah is speaking messanically, as Jesus Christ. He is talking to the 12 tribes even though most have been carried off. They will be gathered. He is their Savior and there was not a Savior before Him nor will there be a Savior after Him. He will always be our God, our Savior.

            Now if you don’t believe that is what Jesus Christ is telling us than do as James suggests and ask God. I certainly believe God over your understanding. But I’ll bet you won’t ask, because your mind is already made up to fit your agenda.

  • PaulNSH

    I suggest you study the origins of the Christian church and what the doctrine was before the Romans took over Christianity and twisted it into a mechanism used by big government to control people. Look at what the Early church fathers said on the issue. Clement of Alexandria about 200 AD in Exhortation to the Heathen chapter 1: “The Word of God became man, that you may learn from man how man may become God”. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, 130-200 Against Heresies: “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become Gods.” All the early church fathers that spoke on the issue said the same thing, and the Bible says we can be come heirs to “all the Father hath”. Furthermore, you take Mormon beliefs out of context. Of course, Heavenly Father will always be The God. Mormons believe this. A son can become a father but he cannot have another father. Men can become Gods, but we will never have another God. A lot of the Mormon beliefs you post are outright lies or taken out of context. Finally, asking only ex-Mormons for their opinions is about as ridiculous and biased as the MSM only getting the opinions of Liberals in their news stories on politics.

    • NoCrud

      Spoken like a true Mormon…

    • Nolan Ashman

      Paul, go blindly into the night. . . . .and day, for that matter. Your criticism is as valid as your logic; neither are of any significance. The LDS religion will continue to grow and you will continue to whine. And the hand, having writ, moves on.

    • James Banta

      You seem to wish to believe that the errant teachings of a man establishes truth over what the Bible teaches then I would agree with you that you have found a reason to believe that mormonism is the truth.. But if you believe God through His word that nothing and no one can become a God (Isaiah 43:10) then you must reject mormonism in it teaching.,. IHS jim

  • NoCrud

    Very good article. I noticed that most of the objections to this article are from people who want to “protect their own.”

    Here are a few links that are very good about showing more proof of the premise of this article:

    http://christianresearchnetwork.org/topic/mormonism/

    http://carm.org/is-mormonism-christian

    http://www.renewamerica.com/analysis/stone/120311

    Going into the Mormons’ “baptism of the dead” is another relatively little-known thing they do and is intentionally so. This is also the bottom line of those “ancestry” websites where they want to know all about your roots and family members. Sure, it matters not but is an indication of their range of secrecy.

  • justanotherprophet

    tools and sheep. for 10,000 years men have been ‘guided’ by what their god has told, them for good or ill. And we are still fighting about who’s imaginary friend is better than our neighbors…stupid monkeys.

    • Grundune

      I am always amused by atheists. They, who have no faith, consider themselves superior to those who have faith. They, who labor blindly in the dark, claim to see better than those laboring in the light. And this one, who must believe in evolution because he can’t admit to a creation by a Creator, calls those who know more than he, stupid monkeys.

      On a starry night, stand outside, look up and behold creation. Then ask yourself, does what I behold have the ability to create itself?

  • Reagangirl

    Hmmm–looks like you overlooked the 2nd greatest commandment found in John 13:
    34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye alove one another; as I have loved you, that ye also blove one another.

    35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye havealove one to another.

  • http://www.tryagain404.com/ kqs

    SO YOU ACCEPT MITTENS THE MORMON-GOD OVER THE MUSLIM GOD. EXCUSE ME BUT A FALSE GOD IS A FALSE GOD AND THEREFORE REJECTED BY THE ONE TRUE GOD.

    (THIS IS NO SLAM TO MORMONS ITS A SLAM TO SKEWERED LOGIC)

    DONT ANSWER THIS SINCE, YOU CAN’T.

    • Grundune

      I think your caps lock is on, kqs.

  • URKiddinMee

    And your motivation for sowing discord among different religions is WHAT? While I am not a Latter Day Saint, I have many friends who are. And even I know enough to to know that this article is full of warped information and some outright lies. I will hit my “Unsubscribe” button as a result of this smear campaign.

  • Janet

    The Posting Policy states, “Thank you for partnering with us to maintain a courteous and useful public environment where we can engage in reasonable discourse.” This blog was far from courteous and reasonable! I guess we are supposed to politely discuss an inflammatory, inaccurate article that seeks to willfully misunderstand the Church of Jesus Christ. Sigh. I find consolation that the religious “experts” known as Sadducees and Pharisees in the Bible sought to tear apart the teachings of Jesus in the same manner as the article above.

  • James Banta

    This is great, Grundune wants to tell everyone that they don’t understand mormonism or their real doctrines and they all need to study because if that. He teaches that he is by far the only authority on this forum and then I show up and in one day he is done with his arguments. I am not a scholar of mormonism nor of the Bible, I am a student and yet he had to give up I believe because he had expended any argument he could think of that cancelled out the teachings of God through His word.. That is fine I didn’t believe his heart would be soft enough to allow God to get through to him. But to have his cultic lies about who God is and what He has done by His grace through faith we hold in Jesus answered so that He can’t lead other astray is a great gift of God.. I praise Jesus for his full armor to protect His children.. IHS jim

    • Grundune

      Tired of being flogged, are we, Jim? Press on. We have a lot more ground to cover.

      • James Banta

        You can’t get past the Bible supporting the Christian position that God is one.. You keep saying that it doesn’t make sense and yet there it is in the scripture and you keep tripping over truth trying to foster a lie.. We can’t even get to the offices of the Church until you somehow show that God is lying and there are three Gods for this world and not one. Until you can your whole Church is built on nothing but a lie.

        Apostle John A. Widtsoe said that “the First Vision of 1820 is of first importance in the history of Joseph Smith. Upon its reality rest the truth and value of his subsequent work” (Joseph Smith—Seeker After Truth, p. 19).

        If it can be shown that Smith had no Vision but invented the whole story Mormonism will crumble being shown to be the lie that it is.. That story is the grounds for the LDS doctrine that the Father has a Body of flesh and bone.. And yet saying that is diametrically apposed to Biblical doctrine.. IHS jim

        • Grundune

          I can certainly get past your interpretations of the Bible. And for your knowledge of the Lord’s church, you have an agenda. Anyone would be stupid to take you at your word on that subject.

  • Michael Turner

    This article is so deceiving, it is nonsense. Extremism of any kind is usually dangerous and untruthful. This is very misleading.

  • AuntiChrist

    LOL, since Mitt lost the mormons are bad again? Conservatives are a fickle bunch!

  • lfhpueblo

    I knew quite a bit of this because I had a friend that I walked to Junior High and High School with. She was Mormon. She even went to the classes every morning at 6am before school to learn her religion even more. We debated quite a few things walking to school. I was raised Baptist. So you can imagine some of the discussions we had. I would throw some questions at her that would baffle her. So she’d take those questions to her church class the next 6am. She’d often come back with vague answers to the questions or answers that made absolutely no sense and I would point that out to her, usually by throwing another question at her that would baffle her. It was good that in junior high our church was teaching us in Sunday Evening Bible Studies about other churches and what they believed and why we believed the way we did as Christians. It also blew my friend away that I actually read the Holy Bible and The Book of Mormon all the way through, when she had never read the Bible all the way through. I don’t even think she read the Book of Mormon all the way through, but only the parts she was told to read on a day by day basis from her teachers in her Mormon class.

  • sha49tn

    Very good article! In ’12, I didn’t want to vote for Romney, but I’d rather have had a Mormon than a communist Muslim as president. At least Romney wouldn’t have tried to destroy our Constitution, & take away our rights. But, I believe that God put Obama in place to bring America to her knees over our sins.

  • Paul

    Ms. Jackson, I must say that I absolutely adore your wit and intellect. You seem like a truly beautiful person. It makes me all the more sad to tell you that you have been mislead. Your article about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day-Saints is mostly false, misleading, and/or taken out-of-context. I really don’t wish to go through point-by-point. I just wish you would dig a bit deeper to arrive at the actual truth. Look past the disgruntled naysayers, please! Would you base your judgment of conservatism on the opinions of a few disgruntled ex-conservatives (liberals)?!? Of course not. Throwing around LABELS (like “cult”) is something we expect from the left – not our own…

    Ok, ok. I’ll go through a couple points. I can’t help myself. ;) I do not wish to go into a whole diatribe on the word “cult”. However, I will point out that *cult* is NOT the same as *occult*. Most get this confused. I would also point out that by the dictionary definition a cult is “a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies” — most, if not all religions, are a cult by this definition. Again, why the hang-up on labels? Mormons are not any more a “cult” than Baptists or Catholics. And so what if we are? “Cult” is just another twisted label. To be VERY VERY clear, Mormons DO NOT worship any mortal man or buildings or anything else that you wouldn’t worship as well. As for symbols, “To say that the LDS Church is Satanic because of its use of the inverted pentagram, is like saying that Buddhists are Nazi’s for their use of the swastika.” It’s ludicrous and just plain wrong. Case in point, pentagrams have been co-opted. They used to be a Christian symbol long before they were twisted by the Father of Lies into something evil. If memory serves me (and it usually doesn’t) there were inverted pentagrams on the Temple of Solomon as well.

    The bottom-line is this, if you truly want to hear the truth, go to the source. Don’t get your “facts” from those who profit from taking down the LDS Church. (Yes, it’s a very lucrative industry.) Please don’t fall for the lies and twisted half-truths. Have an honest and open heart and you will see just how much good is done by those “evil” Mormons. “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” – Matthew 7:20.

    Mormons are such easy targets because we don’t fight back. We don’t hold weekend seminars on how to combat the Baptists (for example). If attacking other followers of Jesus Christ is the definition of a “Christian”, then count me out. I’d rather stay in my so-called cult that believes this:
    “11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” (from the Thirteen Articles of Faith.) I think our Founding Fathers would agree with that, don’t you?
    http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f?lang=eng